Are we actually gonna be able to, to install and do what we need to do to do it? And do we need to train workers up faster?

100%, like, a- and, and, and to look at this as even further, it's like there's something like 508,000 gas, uh, hot water systems in New Zealand that are gonna need to be replaced because it's in everyone's financial best interest to replace those gas systems with electric versions.

So there's also hot water heat pumps and induction cooktops and all of these things.

The short answer is, is that New Zealand is a small enough eco- economy that we're never really gonna struggle with being able to source the hardware coming into the country.

Now, I say that there's always gonna be nuance every now and then, but we really are a rounding error on the production scale of these things now.

So that's the first and most important thing.

The bigger challenge that you identified though is how do we actually do this efficiently and effectively because demand for electrification is now growing at quite a staggering rate.

... is really ever gonna happen?

I

feel Shane Jones breathing down my neck right now because I actually agree.

with what Jen Taylor is saying here, which is really cool.

It's a very exciting time to be a New Zealander.

Half of our economy runs on fuel that we import from the other side of the world.

It's incredibly expensive.

Moving to New Zealand made energy is essential.

But that's not our consumption, right? Because we're putting petrol in our cars, we're putting diesel in our trucks.

How does that work under this system?

Yeah.

So first of all, with the way the energy system is currently designed, we need to build out way more poles and wires to facilitate the future electricity demand of New Zealand, and New Zealanders pay for those poles and wires on their power bills ultimately.

And this, along with a number of other measures, is designed to figure out how to build way less poles and wires in the future.

The short answer is, is that our poles and wires are utilized to an average of 40%, which means conceivably you could squeeze twice as much power into them.

Uh, the problem is we all wanna use power at the same time.

That leads to congestion.

This, this is probably gonna unlock a huge potential, right?

Or a wool shed

... and that's the big thing that we, we fought for there, is that not only should this, uh, low interest long-term finance be available to households, but it should also be available to farmers.

Um, farmers are gonna play such a massive role in this future energy system with the amount that they can generate on their land and on their shed roofs, and put that back into the grid, especially in winter when they're not using a lot of power and everyone else in New Zealand needs it.

So that's super critical.

But then combining that with the big surprise for me was this, the technical term is multiple trading relationships, but the way I describe it is, uh, you- it's been set up so you can sell your power to whoever you want it at whatever price you like.

So all of a sudden, dairy farmers might be able to sell their surplus electricity back to Fonterra, which is super important with all the electrification that needs to go on there.

But also you might be able to give it to your elderly mother in the rest home, or a marae might be able to give it away to its people, or a church might be able to do the same thing.

If you're out there in the market for a new car at the moment or replacing your car, are you an absolute mug if you don't go for a hybrid or an EV?

Things like launching the Home Energy Fund for solar loans, and that's for people to fight back against the cost of electricity by putting a solar panel on their house or maybe on their dairy shed.

That's right.

Or wool shed.

The big thing that we fought for there is that not only should this low-interest, long-term finance... be available to households, but it should also be available to farmers.

Farmers are going to play such a massive role in this future energy system with the amount that they can generate on their land and on their shared roofs and that back into the grid especially in winter when they're not using a lot of power and everyone else in new zealand needs it so that's super critical but then combining that with the big surprise for me was this the technical term is multiple trading relationships but the way i describe it is uh you it's being set up so you can sell your power to her if you want it at whatever price you like so all of a sudden dairy farmers might be able to sell their surface electricity back to fontera which is super important with all the electrification that needs to go on there But also you might be able to give it to your elderly mother in the rest home or a marae might be able to give it away to its people or a church might be able to do the same thing.

It just creates this new level of open market that doesn't really exist in New Zealand's electricity system.

So as it stands at the moment, sorry

If you're out there in the market for a new car at the moment or replacing your car, are you an absolute mug if you don't go for a hybrid or an EV?

Can you talk us through it as simply as possible?

Yeah, sure.

So this could be any employer.

First of all, your employer has to basically elect to become or to start offering this.

They have to work with a leasing company, which is a company that obviously leases electric vehicles out.

But the employer makes the decision that there's something that they want to offer to their staff.

A staff member will have a look at it and go, yeah, this is going to cost me $170 a week for a BYD at 01.

Hey, finally, anything else that you experienced, observed, enjoyed in New York that got you feeling inspired?

Is this a slow burner or

what? It's a really good point.

It's going to come down to a lot of what we're talking about with policy prior to the election is talk.

And what we need is real brave action here.

The energy sector of New Zealand is not going to like this policy.

And we need our regulators and our politicians to be brave post-election, whoever gets into power to give the reforms that New Zealanders need.

The only demonstrable way to lower power bills at the moment is with the rollout of rooftop solar.

Their priority is being changed to affordability and the worry is this may come at the expense of other objectives such as reliability and resilience and, of course, long-term investment because those line charges are how we actually fund building dams.

a slow burner or what?

it's it's a really good point it's going to come down to a lot of what we're talking about with policy prior to the election as talk and what we need is real brave action here the energy sector of new zealand is not going to like this policy and we need our regulators and our politicians to be brave post-election whoever gets into power to give the reforms to that new zealanders need the only demonstrable way to lower power bills at the moment is with the rollout of rooftop solar and we've seen the national party along with many other parties support uh low interest long-term loans to the ratepayers assistance scheme so that is great as well but being able to trade electricity allowing more and more New Zealanders to compete in the market in theory should create a more competitive market but you are right I think there's a lot of uh It's justifiable to be sceptical in that space and we have to make sure it's delivered

And the worry is this may come at the expense of other objectives such as reliability and resilience and, of course, long-term investment because those line charges are how we actually fund building dams.

Well, the thing about all of this is it is a balance.

And I think, unfortunately, we've seen this in prices across New Zealand, that affordability hasn't been taken into account.

And I think actually adding it in as a statutory obligation is really important because we have so much new technology coming into the market now.

that isn't really being accepted.

And the regulation isn't really there to allow this stuff to come in.

It

is the cheapest way to drive our cars or power our cars.

It is the cheapest way to heat our homes.

It's the cheapest way... to heat our water.

And as technology gets better and better and better, it becomes the cheapest way to do more and more things.

So there are 10 million fossil fuel machines in New Zealand, and 8.5 million of them are ready to electrify right now and run off New Zealand-made energy.

There's about a million machines that are almost ready to electrify, which means if you want to go out of your way You'll probably break even on the effort, but you'll have a cool new electric machine and you'll be able to show it off.

And I was wondering if you could talk about that and expand upon that kind of dynamic.

Is it just the Sparkies that we're short on or is it everything to do with the solar installation?

It's mainly Sparkies.

I think there's always opportunities for other people to get involved.

And one of the things that I'm very excited about is figuring out how it is in New Zealand we can retrain people that might be coming out of legacy industries and getting into the solar industry as well.

So it's such an exciting time.

You know, like New Zealanders were often complaining about how there's not a lot of economic activity.

The one industry that is absolutely booming at the moment is solar.

So when my mate John was telling me that I can get a 1% loan from my bank, it did make me wonder why we need these policies from National and Labour that match each other and help us out to get solar if it's actually that easy to get solar.

Is it just the Sparkies that we're short on or is it everything to do with the solar installation?

Oh, it's mainly Sparkies.

I think there's always opportunities for other people to get involved.

And one of the things that I'm very excited about is figuring out how it is in New Zealand, we can retrain people that might be coming out of legacy industries and getting into the solar industry as well.

So it's such an exciting time, you know, like New Zealanders were often complaining about how there's not a lot of economic activity.

The one industry that is absolutely booming at the moment is electrification, solar and batteries running the country on New Zealand made energy and I think now we're at a point where, again, just like what we've seen with the regulatory updates that are now happening for solar installations, we need to do the exact same thing with training, make sure that we get people skilled up nice and quickly.

And I really like actually the South African system at the moment where there's tests and people can go sit those tests.

So when my mate John was telling me that I can get a 1% loan from my bank, it did make me wonder why we need these policies from National and Labour that match each other and help us out to get solar if it's actually that easy to get solar.

What is the one system that brought you back weeks that you swear by, like a productivity hack that you swear by?

Yeah, so I think for me it was realizing very early on as a leader what I'm good at and what I'm not good at and then making sure that I hired people to complement my skill sets.

I do not have strong attention to detail.

I'm very much quite a visionary thinker and you can tell and you've invited me on this podcast because I like to talk and talking is my strength.

Public speaking is my strength.

convincing people through words that this is a good pathway to go down.

You know, I have policy people in my team, I have energy experts in my team, I have advocacy people in my team, I have community specialists within my team, and they ultimately are what, they give me the words, they give me the reasoning, they help me to understand how this works so that I can do what I do best, which is distribute that knowledge back to other New Zealanders by maybe talking about it in a way that other New Zealanders are going to understand.

Why do you do that? Why do you care so deeply about this?

They might not even need them at all anymore, whereas the poorer communities end up therefore carrying a bigger burden in terms of those hard infrastructures.

All comes down to pricing.

Number one thing is we want to make sure everyone remains connected to the grid and that the costs of the maintenance of that grid are shared.

The issue is spending too much money on that grid to get it to a point where grid electricity becomes uneconomic compared to finance, rooftop solar and batteries.

And I think this is ultimately the political line that we're looking at when we lead up to this election is I can tell you quite point blank that solar will save you more money than it will cost you.

You put $20,000 solar installation on your roof, it will return you $60,000 by the time it's ready to retire.

It is an absolute economic slam dunk.

Right.

So how do you navigate that sort of conversation, especially like when we're not just us in New Zealand, it's a global thing too.

So I think the climate movement has got this terribly wrong in New Zealand because we've inherited narrative from overseas and tried to apply it to a small country.

And everyone's like, well, hang on a minute.

If we do all this and sacrifice our revenue and our GDP, we're going to be screwed and it's not going to shift the needle on anything.

I have a lot of sympathies for that argument because if climate change is a cost to our economy, then it doesn't really mean that New Zealand should be the first one to go ahead and do this.

And the best that we could come up with is this argument with, well, actually, we all have to do our fair share.

It's like, come on, guys.

How do you want us to, we want us to consider when voting this election?

So Federated Farmers board member and spokesperson Mark Hooper is saying the problem with the solar panel farms is they're essentially a new version of carbon forestry taking place, except it's on Class I and II land because they need to be on flat land, they need to be near the grid, uh, they need to be central.

Yeah, I'm, um...

I, I've, I've, I've spent some time with Mark talking about this exact problem, and I think we're in sort of complete alignment here.

My big goal is solar really belongs on farm- on farmers who continue to farm.

And so that means where solar is super critical is on things like our dairy sheds or on un- on unproductive land, still allowing farmers to, to keep farming, keep doing what they do well, but obviously contributing to lower their costs as well as contributing back to New Zealand's electricity system.

Um, the problem is, is that New Zealand needs so much more electricity at the moment.

In fact, we probably need to double our generation by 2040, 2050, which shows there's just a huge open pool and some good advantages or good opportunities for these grid scale solar producers.

Just very quickly, 'cause I know you've got a plane to catch back down to Central Otago, uh, Mike Casey, how the hell are we gonna power all these AI centers?

So Federated Farmers board member and spokesperson Mark Hooper is saying the problem with the solar panel farms is they're essentially a new version of carbon forestry taking place, except it's on class one and two land because they need to be on flat land, they need to be near the grid, uh, they need to be central.

Yeah, I'm, um...

I, I've, I've, I've spent some time with Mark talking about this exact problem, and I think we're in sort of complete alignment here.

My big goal is solar really belongs on farm, on farmers who continue to farm.

And so that means where solar is super critical is on things like our dairy sheds or on un- on unproductive land, still allowing farmers to, to keep farming, keep doing what they do well, but obviously contributing to lower their costs as well as contributing back to New Zealand's electricity system.

Um, the problem is, is that New Zealand needs so much more electricity at the moment.

In fact, we probably need to double our generation by 2040, 2050, which shows there's just a huge open pool and some good advantages or good opportunities for these grid scale solar producers.

Just very quickly, 'cause I know you've got a plane to catch back down to Central Otago, uh, Mike Casey, how the hell are we gonna power all these AI centers?

So have they taken the, um, the, you know, and resilience aside for a second, have they taken the cost of batteries in twenty twenty-six into account here with these savings?

You are hitting the nail on the head of the very problem that exists with our energy system at the moment, is we know that these batteries will provide huge value to our energy system.

The people that own the batteries, but also the people within the communities that no longer need to spend as much money, you know, on those poles and wires.

The problem is, is right now it's not fairly recognized the value that they add.

Um, you're not paid fairly when you export those batteries back into the grid during those peak periods.

You're certainly not paid fairly for the, um, for the infrastructure that you're looking at avoiding.

And ultimately, that leads to an outcome which is exactly what you're talking about, where batteries are seen at the moment as being a life jacket.

Has it been taken into account the, um, the effect on their profits? And I'm, I know I'm gonna have difficulty getting our audience to, uh, feel much sympathy for our reduced profits, but, uh, what do you think?

And what are the safety concerns, and should we worry about that?

Yeah, it's essentially, a while back now, I think it was 2012, it was made illegal, and that was because the technology at the time simply wasn't really that safe.

Uh, but technology has come a long way now.

We now have the Germans that have installed 500, sorry, 5 million of these systems.

Uh, the technology has moved on and it has become a lot safer.

The primary concern, uh, really was that it would feed back power, uh, into the grid when there was a power cut, which could cause all sorts of issues for linesmen working on lines, um, who thought they would be, you know, they wouldn't be live anymore.

Whe- whe- if you buy a plug-in system, 'cause I know that renters like to buy plug-in systems, and then landlords freak out because what are the renters doing to my power supply? But when you buy a plug-in system, can you install it yourself, or you still have to get an installer?

No, you can literally just plug it into a 10-amp socket, a normal wall socket in your home, and it starts, uh, starts pushing power back into your home, and those electrons are then used by your fridge and your freezer and your hot water system.

And what are the safety concerns, and should we worry about that?

Yeah, it's essentially, a, a while back now, I think it was 2012, it was made illegal, and that was because the technology at the time simply wasn't really that safe.

Uh, but technology has come a long way now.

We now have the Germans that have installed 500, sorry, 5 million of these systems.

Uh, the technology has moved on and it has become a lot safer.

The primary concern, uh, really was that it would feed back power, uh, into the grid when there was a power cut, which could cause all sorts of issues for linesmen working on lines, um, who thought they would be, you know, they wouldn't be live anymore.

And do... wh- if you buy a plug-in system, 'cause I know that renters like to buy plug-in systems, and then landlords freak out because what are the renters doing to my power supply? But when you buy a plug-in system, can you install it yourself, or you still have to get an installer?

No, you can literally just plug it into a 10-amp socket, a normal wall socket in your home, and it starts, uh, starts pushing power back into your home, and those electrons are then used by your fridge and your freezer and your hot water system.

Where could that be tightened up? Who do you think could be cut out of that process?

Yeah, so it comes down to really modelling on international best practice.

And what we've essentially seen is in some cases, all the solar installation has required is one installer and potentially an inspector.

What we're seeing in a lot of other cases, especially where there's upgrades to meters required, is you might require four or five different electricians to come to a property to disconnect the lamppost views, upgrade the meter, upgrade the solar system, reinstall the fuse, and then finally, after all of that, get the inspector in.

And we just think that's really way too cumbersome for what is becoming quite a template installation process.

And so getting that tidied up is super important.

We think an electrician should be able to sign off on their own work just in the same way they do with other electrical work at the moment.

Is there a trade-off, though, in terms of safety? Because a lot of people might think, well, I actually want someone to go and check somebody else's work.

But, you know, it's about sort of incentivising the people who own that housing stock, isn't it? And what is the incentive for a landlord to invest tens of thousands of dollars, even if it is interest-free loans?

What's the incentive for them to do that? Yeah, one of society's absolute wicked problems, right? Capital cost of this upgrade is something that falls on the landlord.

The person who gets the benefit is the tenant because the tenant is the one that pays the power bill.

And we've been working really hard on this down in Queenstown.

We've set up something called a solar for renters trial.

We've had over 100 landlords take part in it.

It's pretty much trying to figure out how do you split the savings? How do you give the landlord a yield that is either matching or maybe slightly increasing the also allocating a huge amount of that savings to the customer and when you see, or sorry, to the renter, and when you're seeing like IRRs of 16% on solar installations because the cost of electricity in New Zealand is horrific, you start to realise, well, there's 8% yield for the landlord and really significant savings for the tenants.

It must feel a bit weird.

What about the fact that you still have to pay for the lines and if the power companies aren't getting as much money through the sale of electricity, if you will, they will charge more to have that electricity line supply there to be used in times of need?

Yeah, I think there is still a lot of work that has to be done in the regulatory settings of our energy system.

We have an energy system that was designed in the 1990s before anyone had heard about solar panels and certainly no one had really ever thought about storing energy in home batteries.

But both these technologies, when implemented correctly with the right settings, will massively reduce the cost of the future infrastructure.

So we often hear this narrative that New Zealand's grid isn't good enough to support the electrification of everything and we need to spend tens of billions of dollars on it.

But in all honesty, when you look at our grid now, its average utilization rate is only 40 percent, which means conceivably squeeze twice as much power into those existing poles and wires.

The problem is we all want to use power at the same time.

But the batteries have got a way to go, given that the cheapest one's about three and a half grand.

Okay, so if they can buy this from IKEA in Germany, why is it illegal for us to buy it?

It's just been i- illegal here for a long time.

There was a, a, a decision put out, I think back in 2012, about plug-in solar.

Essentially, it's time for us to get with the times.

I think there's, like, 5 million or something installations now across intercontinental Europe.

People are bringing down their power bills by between 7 and 15% a year.

Maybe more if you're really, really active with your power management.

Okay, so if I had one of these things sitting in full daylight, what can I power? Could I power a dryer?

Okay, so if they can buy this from IKEA in Germany, why is it illegal for us to buy it?

It's just been il- illegal here for a long time.

There was a, a, a decision put out, I think, back in 2012 about plug-in solar.

Essentially, it's time for us to get with the times.

I think there's, like, 5 million or something installations now across intercontinental Europe.

People are bringing down their power bills by between 7 and 15% a year.

Maybe more if you're really, really active with your power management.

Okay, so if I had one of these things sitting in full daylight, what can I power? Could I power a dryer?

Okay, so if they can buy this from IKEA in Germany, why is it illegal for us to buy it?

It's just been illegal here for a long time.

There was a decision put out, I think, back in 2012 about plug in solar.

Essentially, it's time for us to get with the times.

I think there's like five million or something installations now across intercontinental Europe.

People are bringing down their power bills by between seven and 15 percent a year, maybe more if you're really, really active with your power management.

So, yeah, it's just something that we thought need to happen in New Zealand.

If I went and got six of them then or five of them or whatever, could I bring my power bill down 100%?