Um, I've always thought of them differently.

Oh, they're, they're absolutely different, and the Miss USA pageant is the product of a Miss America challenging, um, the, both the pageant and the general culture.

In, in 1950, um, Yolanda Betbeze, um, said she was a, uh, she was an opera singer.

That was her, that was her talent.

Um, uh, and she said she would not appear in public in a swimsuit after the pageant, that there was no reason why she should be in a swimsuit talking to reporters, and that she wasn't a body.

She was an opera singer and a talented person.

The pageant stood by this because it fit the, the vision of, of, of respectability and the kind of, the kind of woman they wanted to represent the Miss America crown, this investment in she's a college student.

Um, can you briefly tell me about this small contingent of women, and why does your book take them so seriously at the time? Because they weren't talked about as much as they were talked about, the protesters themselves, the activists.