And what advice do you have for them to try to, if it hasn't happened or hasn't happened yet, to be prepared financially to take care of all of their family's needs?

Yeah.

So there's financial and emotional.

And Justin mentioned that if there is a period in your life, and usually you'll start getting more offers about buying long-term care insurance, like around age 50, 50, 60, 65.

When you get hired in that, the premiums... tend to be unaffordable for a lot of people.

And there's a pocket of people where that long-term care insurance works for.

You've got some assets that you want to try to protect.

And I'm curious what you're hearing about the impact this financial moment is having on people's lives.

There's a lesson there, right?

There is, I mean, you can know the numbers and then let emotions come into play to make a decision that they, she and her husband thought were right for her daughter.

And here's the thing, my show isn't about like shaming anybody.

I wouldn't have done it, but I understand why they did.

And my first guest, she was just delightful.

And she was so open to hearing what I thought about the decision, because I think that it also will help other parents who are in the same boat for about to send their kid off to college, maybe next fall or looking at colleges now for their children.

And just try to take the emotions out of it and do look at the numbers so that you don't have decades of debt.

There's a lot going on there.

Mi-Michelle, we talk about credit card debt with you quite a bit, and, and what are you finding about how people are turning to credit cards for groceries but, but also how that's connected to other affordability issues in their lives?

Yeah.

Well, you know, when your pay can't stretch for everything, you reach for credit.

Uh, oftentimes when we talk about this, some people right away go, "Well, people are, are, are going on vacations or buying a bunch of clothes." And while there are some people doing that, the vast majority are just trying to make ends meet.

Uh, and so if you've got...

You know, rent is up, so one whole paycheck is for housing.

That leaves you having to try to carve out that second paycheck, if you get paid twice a month, for groceries and gas, and if you've got kids, childcare.

Mm-hmm.

[clicks tongue] And what about buy now, pay later loans? That sounds like a dire behavioral adaptation.

Yeah, you know, when that program was introduced, buy now, pay later, the idea was that you would buy, you know, maybe a dress or something or a couch.

You had the money coming, and it was, you know, you wanna break the payments up.

But when you use things like, uh, use that for groceries, and it's an ongoing thing, 'cause then you take out an- one loan, and then you take out another, and it's compounded, that's when it really becomes a pr- problem.

And listen, quite a few people, more than 5%, are using payday loans to buy their groceries.

So this says what the Urban Institute is concerned about, and what we all should be concerned about, is that there is a great deal of Americans who are struggling so much that they have to buy their groceries on credit.

Now, we understand paying your, for your, you know, car repair on credit.

Critics said, "No, no, that's gonna have real world ramifications, more people are gonna lose benefits, and that's gonna show up statistically later." Has it?

[laughs]

You know, you open a refrigerator and there's stuff in there, you say, "There's nothing to eat." You open a refrigerator and there was a box of baking soda.

That was all that was in there.

Uh, we were disheveled and the, the, the boys were, the twin boys were crying.

We'd been in the house all day with no food.

So he scooped us up, took us to my grandmother's house.

That's the night he set fire to the house.

But there's a strength in keeping young people connected to their culture, their history, and their roots.

So do you want to you take your pick as to what you want to talk about?

I just, again, I love listening to Ronna.

She's just so, I love talking to smart women, I tell you.

But this whole thing about the digital companies, like somehow we're not, you know, part of it.

We are not helping them get rich because every time you type in a question, you're helping them get rich.

I mean, every time I go someplace, it's like they have the cookies, right? We're going to use what you do to help improve X.

Well, what they mean is we're going to use what you do and ask us to help us get richer.

Are there changes coming down the pike on student loans? Or did I imagine that?

Well, so parents can add money to this account every year?

Yes, up to $5,000.

And it's just not parents, other people.

I could put money in it.

Families can contribute to it up to $5,000 per child.

Employers can also contribute on behalf of the child with the employer limits are set up to $2,500 per year.

So the idea is to get people started investing and getting children started investing in the stock market.

It sounds nice, and sure, I'll take the $1,000 for my kid, but there are many more things you can do to give your kid a better chance in life.

Michelle, if there was any one thing that you could tell the world about finances after the age of 60, what would it be?

Ah, let's see.

There's so much.

I would just say that we spend a lot of our early years, our 20s, our 30s, and 40s, and 50s building our career, trying to make more income to have a stabilization for our family.

And then we get sort of towards retirement, and it's almost like a little bit of an afterthought.

You're like you know you have to retire, you know have to save, but in terms of actually having a game plan, I found a lot of people don't have a game plan.

They say, "I wanna retire at 62." And I say, "Okay, can you afford to retire at 62?" And the answer comes back, "I wanna retire at 62." And I said, "Well, can you afford to? Have you looked at how much you're gonna get from Social Security? If you have a pension, what's that like? Do you take the annuity, or if there's a cash out offer, do you take that? What is your budget gonna look like? Do you wanna move? Do you wanna stay? Do you wanna downsize? Are you gonna drag a mortgage into retirement?" That's one of the biggest things.

What did you decide about long-term insurance?

... and her husband are in their, in her 30s, a six-year-old child, moving back home with the parents 'cause it makes financial sense.

I, I actually love it.

And you know, Angela, I picked it up in your voice too, Julie, that you are just so, um, stressed.

And I notice, and I wrote it down several times, you said, "I hope this is gonna work.

I hope we'll do this." So I wanna turn that hope into a plan.

And so to make it successful and maybe take away some of that stress and that angst of you moving back home, I would have you and your husband, and, and after you meet me with your parents, and come up with a plan.

So if your idea is that you want to eventually move out, put a timeline on that.

Mm

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, just about anybody can file a tax return for you.

They do have to, if they're taking money from you, then they have to apply for a identification number from the IRS, and then they can prepare your taxes.

The problem is that many of these folks do not have the training.

They don't, they [laughs] don't know what they're doing.

And so you wanna be very careful that you're dealing with someone who is, has some, some training.

In the column, I talked about shady tax preparers' practices.

Hmm

I would think 60%, 70% would think about, when I'm not working, how am I going to make it?

Yeah.

Well, you know, there's lots of pressure on people's paycheck.

You know, you've got children.

You know, the cost of living is so expensive in so many cities.

Sending your child to college costs so much.

Even when you take on debt, you know, you still there's a hole that you have to fill.

It all counts.

How do you first address that emotional issue of money?

So you know what I tell people? To lean in to your, especially with your faith, right? Because we are taught to be faithful.

But Scripture also talks to us that faith without works is dead.

So you've got to look at both parts of it.

You want to use your faith, but there are things that you can do so that when we have times of crisis, you have something to fall back on.

The problem is during good times, we just think it's never gonna end.

It's always gonna be good.

What's your attack methodology?

And Michelle, what do you say about the housing market? Do you expect that the government's going to be able to do something, uh, to, to help with housing cost reform as the president has promised?

Yeah, I think this c- current administration, absolutely not.

They, th- this administration, if you think about who's there, uh, their background and we have one of the richest Congresses, you know, in a, uh, uh, really ever probably.

Um, eh, so they are not tapped into what regular people have to do to get a house.

Uh, I am not optimistic about the housing market, um, at all.

I mean, especially if you live in a big metropolitan area like I do, and, and I have for the longest time been an advocate of multi-generational housing.

My 27-year-old's living with us and we have encouraging him to stay here for a very long time because that way he can take money that he would have put in a rent and save.

So I wonder, as we're talking about the market and younger investors and, and people being able to buy houses and maybe more young voters as we head into the midterms, can you tell us what your advice is to young people who may be looking to learn how to properly invest?

too

that says...

And a ministry leader.

That's right.

And I run a financial ministry at my church.

So I walk this walk.

I personally think that everybody should... have some of their time devoted to giving to a charity or working.

I guess I, how can we make sure that

Like everybody has, has room in their wallet for that, and I would love for you to tell us like why, why do you say everyone's budget should include charitable giving?

It's something that I deeply, deeply believe in, uh, because my whole existence actually started with charity.

Uh, my grandmother took me and my siblings in.

There was five of us.

Uh, my oldest sister was eight, I was four.

I had a sister who was three, and twin brothers who were two.

Uh, our parents had a lot of issues, and my grandmother basically, um, they were about to send us all off to foster care and split us up, and she said, "No, bring them to me." Had it not been for my grandmother rescuing us, where would I be? Maybe not in such a great place.

Yeah.

Oh, hey, by the way, you forgot that thing in your cart.

I know, right? It does.

They're tracking that too.

They're like, oh, she said this in her cart.

She might want to still get this.

Here's 20% off or free checking or not free checking, free shipping.

And so, and here's the other thing.

Don't do the Cyber Monday.

Right.

And unfortunately what happened with the federal workforce, where we always thought...

I- I- I don't know about all the people listening, but when I was growing up, federal job was like locked.

You know, if you did your job, you're gonna hold onto a job.

And that kind of made people realize that your job is not 100% safe.

Look at tech, right? It used to be, "Oh, get a job in tech and you'll always have a job." That's not true anymore.

And so I think a lot of people are worried, rightfully so, right? I don't want you to be fearful, but I do want you to realize that none of us are secure, and knowing that, you have to spend and give appropriately, right? I think it's okay to feel what you feel, but don't let that drive you to the point where...

They're in debt, but Christmas is coming, Hanukkah is coming, and they want to give their kids a special holiday?

And so (laughs) we actually asked Michelle this question about prenuptial agreements off this news of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce getting engaged, and so I actually wanted to play some of her responses here.

You know, we- we have these stories, these big stars getting married.

There'll be articles and commentary about, you know, prenups and what they bring to the table, but honestly, for regular people, people who don't have that mega rich money or that star power, I would say get into a really good premarital course.

Figure out what it takes to merge your money in a way that honors you, honors other people in your family.

That's the most important thing.

So if I were you, I would be more concerned in getting into a really good premarital program or course that has a strong financial component than whether or not you need a prenup.

Mm.

You know, you are where you are, uh, and accept that but do something about it.

So if you're getting close to retirement or you're about there or at a time where you think, then you got to make some hard decisions.

Are you ready to retire? You might say, "I wanted to retire at 62.

I'm gonna retire no matter what." Well, you can't retire at 20- 62.

You don't have enough.

Many people work into their late 60s and 70s and 80s.

(laughs)

Michelle, your thoughts?

Yeah, I, I don't think you should, um, look at bankruptcy as a solution in this particular case.

It sounds as if they're still working, there's money coming in.

And there's actually mean testing for bankruptcy, so they may actually not even qualify for a Chapter 7.

They would be forced into a Chapter 13, which is a plan where you pay your debts, you know, up until over a five-year period, five to seven-year period.

And so, they may not even get the relief that they're thinking that they get.

And then obviously, you still gotta pay your secured debts, your home, your car note.

Michelle? Go ahead.

For people who are close to retirement, for the 70 million Americans who invest in a 401K, what should they be doing or not doing in this moment?

Uh, I hate to say this because the inclination is to do it, but don't look.

Just, just don't.

I have not looked at my portfolio since the Trump Administration announced these tariffs because the market started to slide then.

When you look the actual numbers, you, you...

The natural tendency is for you to panic.

And you can panic and scream, but don't act on that.

markets were plunging?

Why are they going so crazy?

I mean, he announced these crazy tariffs and the market's like, "What in the world?" (laughs) The markets have mostly been responding because we know that if the U.S.

imposes tariffs, that other countries are gonna retaliate, and now we've got a trade war.

And the markets are responding to that.

And here's the thing about the markets: they don't like uncertainty, and the Trump administration has been flip-flopping on the tariffs.

And then when they say they're gonna have some, it's much larger than anyone thought.

And that's what is making the market go bananas, because we don't know where we're gonna end up on this.

What are you telling them they should do with their retirement accounts?

Like, what is the world that they created from the start and how did they do it?

So, a lot of what they do is they spoof the real name of the agency and telephone number.

So, when she got that first call, it said the Rockville Police Department and it had the number of the Rockville Police Department.

So, you believe your eyes.

By the time she answered, that had been a third call.

And so she d- didn't ignore the other two, but she thought, "Oh, I don't know what this is about." But when they called a third time, she said, "Well, this must be serious.

I must answer this." Same number, same, you know, title of the department, and then, uh, proceeded to say, "Well, we're gonna transfer you to the FBI." So when that person called her back, same thing, FBI shows up in her caller ID, the FBI number for the Washington office shows up.

Oh.

Mm-hmm.

... um, or they think they need to file for unemployment. So there is paperwork that you need, but if you don't get it from the agency, you still can apply. You just have to sign an affidavit that says, "This is how much I made, and I was fired." And then the, uh, the unemployment agency... A- and you would apply where your duty station is. So if you work in DC, you'd apply in DC. Um, and then they should contact the agency and get the information that they don't. And if they don't get it back in a certain amount of time, then they're supposed to, if you qualify, go ahead and send you those, uh, unemployment payments. And the other reason is, even if you don't get the money, that will open the door to some other services that you might be eligible for because you no longer have a job. Um, and so that's really important. And I think also, if you have not been fired yet, but you feel like you might or there's some sort of rumblings, now is the time to, uh, you know, get your budget in check, and I would just cut everything. If I was a federal employee right now, no matter wh- how long I've been working for the government, I would be culling through my budget and cutting anything that's not a necessity because they've been making these decisions so quick. And even if you get your job back, in the interim, you've gotta pay the mortgage or the rent or your car payment. So I would be pulling back and saving, and you know, right now, cash is king if you're a federal employee.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and so, if this is your relative and you know their financial situation, you s- you could say something like, "You know what? Let me cover your utility bills for a couple of months to give you some breathing room. Can I pay your car payment for a couple of months just so that you can get situated?" So, you can be proactive, and when you do that, I pay the person directly, so I would pay the rental office director. I would pay the car payment directly. Um, you don't wanna be too intrusive, but you wanna be able to say, "This is how I can help you." Don't give those little blanket statements, like, "If you need help, call me." Because a lot of times they won't, because it's, it's too shocking. It's too, like, "What do I do?" And, um, and they're dealing with the mental stress, and they may not know what to ask for. Drop off a bag of groceries, help with childcare, whatever you can do, financially and then mentally. Be there for them. Let them vent. Let them talk. Um, and just be real supportive of that. I w- My sister worked for a government contractor during the Great, uh, Recession, uh, and it was such... It was so devastating for her, uh, and it was hard to get her to do anything because she had lost, you know, her income. And so my husband and I sat down with her, we helped her with her budget, and we actually did cover her car payments for a year, uh, while she c- tried to find another job, and eventually she did. If you can afford that. You may not be able to afford that like, uh, my husband and I could, but whatever you could help.

So that's the kind of thing you have to negotiate in advance, too.

You do.

And I think you should travel with people who have a similar traveling style.

And I probably, I love just sitting hours and hours on a beach.

So when I travel, that's the kind of person I would travel with.

Now, if you still want to travel with that person, then that's, again, communication.

Say, listen, we're going to go about and do things.

So what is the banker in this context?