I went back to Professor Michelle Grossman, who we've spoken to several times in different episodes of this podcast, and one of the things I wanted to talk to her about specifically was examples where extremism and fractures within Western societies have been addressed successfully, and she gave me some examples.

One of the inhibitors at the moment is the demand for information people do need to feel safe when they have difficult or painful conversations.

Feeling safe can be both an enabler of a difficult conversation, but it can also be an inhibitor.

It gets very tricky.

And I say that the demand for a safe space can be an inhibitor because people can sometimes interpret that as meaning I shouldn't feel anything negative at all.

I should only feel happy and comfortable all the time.

Well, If you're only ever feeling happy and comfortable all the time in a conversation, you can't have a difficult or a painful conversation.

This

in her thinking and one of the things that she did for me in this conversation that you're going to hear is differentiating between the perspectives of left-wing extremists and right-wing extremists and how we can view them very differently so

I think I'm not a fan of the horseshoe theory because I think the value regimes of what I would consider to be left-wing and right-wing movements are so diametrically opposed to each other The horseshoe effect has a little more valency, in my view, in terms of some issues around tactics, perhaps, and techniques.

But the values part is what keeps them well and truly separated.

Having said that, what I observed were efforts by both those within various left movements and various right movements and along the spectrum.

between the two to leverage this.

Okay.

So it was, there were very, and to weaponize it, I would go so far as to say to weaponize it.

object.

Mm

... that's what cancel culture is.

Cancel culture is if it's, if it's not what I wanna hear, shut up.

Right? Um, shut up and get out of the road, and you're not allowed to say that, and you're not allowed to say that.

Now, what, the, the, the impact that that has, um, is twofold.

So you might start with a, um, a misunderstanding or a problematic view, say, of one community towards another community.

When you don't allow those things to actually be said, explored, challenged, countermanded, debated out in the open, when you suppress those dialogues, you then create another layer of problems.

Sure

Yeah.

So there are two main components of terrorism in my view.

One of them is motive, and the other is impact.

Okay? Well, there's, there's motive, intention, and impact.

Let's, let's call it three, uh, for the sake of argument.

Um, a lot of people in, you know, everyday people in the public, um, they tend to be more focused on the impact, which is to say am, a- am I terrified? [laughs] Do I feel terr- If I feel terrified, it's, it's terrorism, right? Uh, so I can remember there was a big debate, uh, among some people, um, around the Bourke Street attack by Olga Sulas, right? This is the fellow who drove his vehicle up Bourke Street.

It was awful.

Mm.