Paint me a picture of that world if we had gone solid instead of dead.

Yeah.

Boy, that's a good and super difficult question to answer.

But just by way of background, so she started as basically a community leader activists, catalysts helping immigrants in the Boston area integrate and form communities where they could support each other.

And she basically witnessed how these people that weren't very highly educated, they came from Ireland, from Italy, from other places, in the tens of thousands, were able to figure out how to solve problems together, right? In a way that didn't require a lot of hierarchy, a lot of bureaucracy.

And so I think that was kind of a big part of her spur to then start to write about this, these things.

And then she even had an amazing career as a consultant.

It's not just that they have a humane management system that they've been able to endure, but they really have achieved almost a civic status of creating such value in the world that you admire them on that basis.