Talk to me about that.

So it was risky, too, you know, because I didn't know anybody who was doing what I was doing.

I mean, there's a few people now I can look at and say, oh, OK, yeah.

But I didn't really have anyone to look at.

But for me, it was the turning point for me.

You know, I learned a lot under Sue Bryce, like you and the Portrait Masters.

And we were at this self-value workshop with Sue.

necessarily young person, but new photographer,