I start by asking for his reaction to Paul Davison Casey's just-released damning review, which Michael revealed at the weekend cost Tauranga Council more than half a million dollars.

Well, in my opinion, I thought the review was scandalous.

It is absolutely damning, and the reason I say that is because the Tauranga City Council, according to Paul Davison KC's review, knew of the risk to life for people in the campground, and they knew this for more than two decades.

There are geotechnical reports dating back to 1999 warning of rockfall and warning of landslips.

I'll quote you one extract from the 1999 report from an engineer, and he says, "...the risks of injury or fatality from slope failures to sleeping persons in fragile accommodation, like tents or caravans, is quite high, and the owners-operators of such facilities would have a duty of care to ensure their safety." These reports warning of similar risks went up right until just a few months before this tragedy occurred.

In fact, the latest report was from HDGEO, an engineering consultancy, in June 2025.

I mean, that's very, very recent.

Michael talks us through this.

So the first warning was in 1999, and the most recent only what, six or seven months before the actual landslide?

Yeah, that's right.

The most recent, um, was in 2025.

Um, and both of those reports re- recommended w- w- what's known as, uh, they, they call it a TARP.

It's essentially an action plan, uh, to pass on, uh, to people in council so they know what to look for, uh, what warning signs, uh, there could be for a slip.

And of course on the morning this all occurred, the warning signs were obvious.

I mean, people were taking photos of, uh, you know, mini waterfalls coming down the mountain.

Can we say for sure that if they had one of those trigger action responses in place, a TARP, on the day of the landslide, that people's lives would've been saved?

you can imagine there's already a bit of controversy about this, especially from American ship workers, who obviously they are saying that, no, American ships need to be built by American companies on American shipyards.

Right.

There are similar concerns in Congress, too.

I mean, this has been a continuing conversation for years.

Foreign shipyards have been viewed as a way to really break the bottleneck on shipbuilding here in the United States.

But Like you said, you run into problems of should U.S. dollars be flowing overseas when really, you know, the argument is that capacity should be built here within this country.

What is EMAL?

Yes.

... obviously they are saying that no, American ships need to be built by American companies on American shipyards.

Right.

There's similar concerns in Congress too.

I mean, this has been a, a continuing conversation for years.

Uh, foreign shipyards have been viewed as a way to really, uh, break the bottleneck on, uh, shipbuilding here in the United States, but, like you said, you run into problems of should US dollars be flowing overseas when really, you know, the argument is that capacity should be built here within this country.

Yeah.

Uh, Trump doesn't like this technology very much.

Uh, so if you saw this news last week, uh, that Trump ordered this change for, uh, Ford-class carriers, uh, it seems like there's a, there's a plan that has to be presented on how to, uh, rip this out [laughs] of, uh, you know, uh, a, an aircraft carrier under construction and possibly implement it for, for future carriers as well.

He didn't want to be that guy getting a divorce given their lifestyle and their religion?

Absolutely.

Personally, I think that is the strongest motivation he had to commit the crime is his image.

Um, Jim Craig is all persona.

Do you believe Karen Cain was the catalyst?

I think he used her as a catalyst.

I think he had been thinking about killing Angela and he would finish what he intended to do by a certain date and time.