Yeah

... primary energy and the g- the big picture challenge and so on.

But right, the electrification staircase.

So first of all, why is it a staircase and not another ladder? The hydrogen ladder was...

W- the idea was stuff that's we have to do with hydrogen and stuff that when all of this transience are over, when all of these money being thrown at things and political, you know, you got people like, uh, you know, uh, Frans Timmermans saying, "Hydrogen rocks," and all these people going crazy and, and whatever.

Once all that's faded away, what will we be doing? What will we not? So it was a very g- it was a sort of snapshot of, I don't know, let's call it 2040.

What I've done with the, with a bunch of co-authors with the electrification staircase is to try to bring in the time element.

Oh, right, in the picture in the back

Mm.

That's not the way trade works.

So I think that that's an issue.

Essentially, I think that either our currencies are overvalued or China's country... c-uh, currency is undervalued, and if that adjusts back to some kind of semblance of normality, uh, one way or the other, I, I think it will.

Um, I'd like it to think it's through economic rationality and, and, and rather than a collapse in the value of all of our, you know, Western currencies.

But if, if and when that adjusts, I think that Australia will start to look much, much more competitive, which would be a very good thing.

[dramatic music] This Australia Deep Dive was made possible by the support from a number of organizations: the Australia Renewable Energy Agency, Race for 2030, the Energy Efficiency Council, and the University of New South Wales Energy Institute, for whose support we are extremely grateful.

[chuckles]

Was that conscious or did you just, why pick out Greta?

Right.

So the phrase that I use, the only time I mentioned Greta was I said that we should stop taking the knee to Greta Thunberg and start worrying about utility bills.

So it's not just an attack on Greta Thunberg.

It's actually trying to refocus.

And that's a sort of shorthand for what I'm doing in part two, which is refocus on the concerns of the average person.

And So I may have used a florid, you know, sort of turn of phrase to try to emphasize that.

Because as you say, people have been able to pick it apart and then they discredit the whole thing.

So a question first, what is some of that history that you relate? And then do you think this time is going to be different?

So one of the things that I set out to do as I started writing is to clarify my mind.

Where was I on the optimism, pessimism or there's some kind of scale, because if you look back, we have repeatedly been told that.

Just as we have with, you know, Thomas Malthus on, you know, population is going to lead to mass hunger.

And then you have the same sort of predictions that come around again and again and again.

And every time sort of human ingenuity seems to work something out.

And in data centers, we've had exactly the same.

Three recommendations.