What does it look like? What do you see in the organization when a majority, let's just say a majority of people are burnt

out? Okay.

Well, there's a lot of people burned out.

It's never really everybody.

The place we've been to, it's always a range of these kinds of things that we're assessing them.

But what does it look like? Like essentially, and it is interesting in that we did one study earlier where we looked at the correspondence between patient satisfaction ratings of their nursing care and the scores on the burnout scale of the nurses.

And, you know, it was like two different, our group did the burnout scale and some other organization did the patient satisfaction, so they independently run surveys.

Is there a solution to ensure that there's good organizational processes and systems so that way people don't have to depend on personal relationships to get jobs done? Is this a process definement problem? In some cases, it sounds like in the hospital example, that's the case.

Not for a

long while.

We've got a lot of work to do before we get a guarantee.

I think in those, wow, I mean, there's a lot of things to unpack there.

I think, first of all, I guess I don't think of it as going in and sort of doing burnout treatment as I do looking at what do you do to prevent developing or sustaining burnout over time? How do you change how you manage the place? And I think that the kinds of things we're working on now, as I look at it, there are things that are going on just within a particular work group.

It's dynamics of what's going on with leadership or micromanagement or civility or incivility or these kinds of things just within a work group.

And then there's the next thing about what's going on between work groups.

Or