Mm-hmm.

Are they using the same c- the same language that's showing up in the thank you email that they're gonna get talking about the impact of what their gift can do, right? And so I think so often we tend to, to have this very myopic view of like, "This is the piece of communication that I own," without looking at the bigger picture of how that touches all of the points.

And so how do we make sure...

Because ultimately, what the goal is to connect a donor to your organization, and you want that experience to not be confusing.

[chuckles] So if you, if they get a direct mail piece or they get an email that drives them to a webpage, for example, and the webpage has nothing to do with the ask that was on that [chuckles] site, it's just your generic donor page, I s- the donor starts to get confused.

If they ask a question about this direct mail piece that they got because they called in and had, wanted to talk to somebody about it, and the operator on the phone or the, the person on the phone has never seen that particular direct mail piece [chuckles] and has no idea what they're talking about, all of a sudden start, we start to lose donor confidence.

And so that holistic communication where everything matches from A to Z, soup to nuts, all of the people are on the same message just helps to build that connection and clarity without providing a confusing experience for a donor.

How do you help folks stay on what they're trying to achieve?

So I thought maybe you can go first and then I'll go next.

Yeah.

So one of the things that we got talking about in this idea of ethical storytelling for nonprofits, and it is, let me just say, like, I am not the top voice.

I'm not claiming to be the expert here.

I think there's folks from Memory Fox to Maria Bryan to Daria Ford.

There are so many people that are doing this well and kind of setting those frameworks.

But I love that it's a conversation that we're finally having, right, about how do we tell stories better? in a way that doesn't trap folks in a victim mentality right or that lets them evolve i worked with a group here in pittsburgh one time that works with women coming out of domestic violence situations and for so long they kept reusing this woman's story she was on every billboard every time a commercial ran you saw her face and she finally went back to them and was like look that was seven years ago I've moved on.

Yeah.

How do you think about the kind of base building of that and how that story for whatever need or campaign works? can really evolve or connect like the entire strategy.

Yeah.

So I think, Man, if we go back to even like, what are you seeing in the sector right now alongside this? One of the things that I'm really excited about is how much conversation there is right now around this idea of ethical storytelling, right? The folks at Memory Fox, Maria Bryan, Daria Ford, there's so many speakers out there that are really focusing on this.

And I love it.

One, I love it just in general because we should be doing a better job.

But to your question, I think the idea of ethical storytelling is, by nature centers someone other than the organization at the, at the core, right? It's about the impact that our programs are having instead of, you know, here's some, some our narrative around what's happening.

It's focusing on what happened in the life of a person or in the life of an animal or, and for so long, I think we've been, we've been telling stories that really position us as the hero of like position organizations as the hero without realizing that like your volunteers are a part of that.

Like, where do you see the role of community in And just the evolution and advancement of the sector as a whole.