Mm.

But I think that in a way what this book deals with is this idea of observational drawing versus iconography.

So if you are making icons, you are dealing with a idealized s- symbolic treatment of a subject.

So you know that, I don't know, virgin has a lily in her hand and a goldfinch because they mean this and they mean that, or the sun is a disc with a smiling face in it and rays going out of it.

And those are iconographic treatments of subjects.

But when you observe, when you're doing observational drawing, you're looking for the specific and you're understanding often something for the first time.

And I-

Mm

how do you go about writing about a place like that is it drawn from memory is it drawn from the books that you've read about anti-capitalism or capitalism itself how did you build this strange living but inanimate thing that is the centerpiece of the collection

Well, that's a great question.

Well, first of all, the world building came from my own experience.

It wasn't really from, there's no literature that you can really read around capitalism, late stage capitalism, that could help, that would help you build the world in your head because it's also abstract.

It always comes down to labor and money.

But when you say labor, what do you mean? There's different types of labor.

When I think of labor, because I've worked on building sites as well.

you would also splice that with people who run a knife up their finger by mistake or someone who loses their life in the factory there's a fascinating intermingling of flesh and blood and steel and electricity and Was that an awareness that you had at the time? Did it emerge as a theme for you and something that you could bring in continually? Or is it just the natural way that you think about this type of work and labour?