That's how he described you, in two words.

Well, thanks very much to Martin Burke.

And, you know, like, that's what I'm saying, you know, people there around, and it's real quiet, and I'm up there in my workshop, And there's not a sound or there's nothing.

And I'm there, I'm working on my own.

And I remember back there during this summer and the real hot weather, I used to be in the workshop at six o'clock in the morning and I would not come out of it apart from going down to my for my meals.

or Helen calling me for the cups of coffee or whatnot in between.

I wouldn't leave that workshop until 10 o'clock at night.

It had fallen down.

Is that

right? Yeah, that's right.

I remember, I was always...

You worried me.

Like, you're the only friend that actually worried me.

Like...

Because, you know, boys are very ya-ya-ya, whereas you would be ya-ya-ya, but then you'd go through this stage of just being silent.

And I'd just sort of pretend, laugh and ache inside.

So what's your sort of life in rugby been for you?

Okay, well, I was born in Cardiff, born in St. David's Hospital.

I lived in Ely and Fairwater until I was about 10, and then my parents moved to Penarth.

So I went to the grammar school in Penarth, played rugby there, played rugby for Cardiff schools, under-17s, under-19s by sixth form.

Then went away to college.

So University of Southampton played there, played for Hampshire and moved with work up to London.

So started playing for London Welsh and play sort of Druids, Dragons, which is the second or third team for London Welsh until I was about 30, 35.

Is something like that, and that's a debate about going from four to three as well, is that just reflective of where we are now, basically?