But what are those differences, do you think?

Yeah, I think discipleship is kind of a freighted word for Lutherans.

My colleague, Gordon Jensen, who teaches up in Canada, has just written a fine book.

I'd recommend it.

It's called The Call to Discipleship Instead of the Cost of Discipleship.

I think, in other words, so he's flipping Bonhoeffer's...

Actually, Bonhoeffer's book was called Nachfolge, which means...

But how do we bring these practices, lift up some of these things as we're living in the messiness of people's lives in congregations today?