So Mark, how would you apply this insight to South Africa in the 1980s?

There were many academics in the 1980s writing about the political economy of apartheid.

In other words, writing about the structural contradictions.

And there were many journalists who were writing about the everyday events that were happening.

And those were just descriptions of what was happening rather than an explanation.

so i wanted to talk about the langa massacre as a particular set of events which didn't happen just because there were these big structural political economy contradictions because those affected everybody but there wasn't a massacre everywhere so what were the specific conditions in the Eastern Cape and in the Juttenhag area in particular that resulted in the massacre.

So I was interested.

And in concluding, Mark, could you outline what the lessons people could take from South Africa in the 1980s to help in confronting the growing problem of authoritarian populism and the rise of anti-democratic forces in many parts of the world today?

And if you look back now, how have they fared?

Well, initially they seemed to work well because there was a very, very strong accountability mechanisms.

The city manager at the time had a committee that ensured that all 13 entities reported monthly on their numbers and there was strict control over the salary levels and the appointment of the boards.

But over time, politicians of various parties that needed to build their patronage networks realized that the boards were very useful ways of rewarding loyalists with nice revenue streams and CEOs of these separate entities with inflated salaries.

and multiple layers of executives.

So what started off what seemed to be working based on a particular theory of public administration has really become a framework for intensification of capture and corruption.

How central have these entities been in terms of Joburg's financial woes? You'll no doubt will remember the scathing letter written by the finance minister and even the warnings of ESCOM of late to cut off the city's power.

I think they've been very central, especially since they started to deteriorate.