And so if we step back from someone who has a very long history, a long established brand, and someone's just starting out, can you talk a little bit about like when they even think about brand, what should they be thinking about? And then how can they test to make sure that they're heading toward a brand that's going to be successfully connecting them with people and comfortable for them?

No, that's a great question, a great thought.

Here's the reality about brand.

Whether or not you've worried about brand, whether or not you've cultivated or tried to curate a brand, you already have cultivated one.

There is one that exists.

So one of the most important things you can do is consider how whatever you've put into the world is being interpreted or seen by other people.

And that's your brand, right? It comes back to, you know, I think it was Bezos who said, a brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room.

Are there places where using yourself as an avatar... for your audience that you want your brand to reach a danger or is that usually a good idea?

So just to give an idea of, you know, at your varying levels, what two things did you get out of the last couple?

So one of the things I'm doing a lot at the conference, I'm up really early either to introduce James for the breakfast or to get things ready for the MC and compile all the notes and the announcements and stuff like that.

So I try really hard to, I want to get some rest because I'm going to need my energy.

And the karaoke night was an example of people.

People don't want to see me.

They've seen enough of me.

Let's let other people have the stage.

I am

Mm.

I mean, so it's gotten, that's gotten easier.

But I think there's a few reasons.

I think one of the reasons is, yes, digital made it so much easier for indie authors to get out there and break into the community.

But the reality is that print books still outsell e-books in general o- over- overall, despite the fact that indie authors can make six and seven figures [laughs] a year from selling e-books alone on a single platform.

So print has never really gone away.

It was just never something indie authors attended to.

Yeah, not the US.