So what's your take on Michael Gove's comments there?

Well, I, I was, found myself very much in agreement with much of what he was saying, because the critical thing about an adoption is, does this child require a new family, or is this just a holding operation until the natural parents are in a position to do that? And there will be children for whom permanent arrangements are required.

And if permanent arrangements are required, that requires a commitment from the parents as much as from the children.

And the whole point of an adoption order is that parents take on a commitment for life.

So my adopted children, who are now in their 40s, we're still the first port of call in the usual kind of way, and it's crucial.

Otherwise, if they're just fostered, at 18 they're set loose, and 18-year-olds leaving care are the only people in this country who are expected to be independent at 18.

They're often the least equipped to do so.

Mm.