But that's got to affect the players, hasn't it? This kind of weight of expectation and historical burden.

Yeah, you...

I, I, I think it's very intriguing to, to what extent they are c- uh, as Joseph says, they're cognizant of, of obviously.

But to what extent is it a motivator? Um, having interviewed far too many footballers in my time and not really having had too many cerebral conversations, I would s- I would fancy that the prospect of losing in a World Cup semifinal and just that burden, you know, ha- having come that close, having gone through this tournament now, what's it, week four, um, just, you know, just the pressure, the drama, the, the narrow escapes for Argentina in particular, the Cape Verde and Egypt, et cetera, e- even the last one against the Swiss.

Whether that's prospect of, uh, losing in the semifinal or flipping it around, getting to the final must outweigh any other considerations.

However, it's...

Malvinas is drummed into your head as you're growing up, you know? And I think, I think that's probably true in the South African perspective too in, in the old days, you know, which was, um- It was there, the baggage is there, but the, uh, uh, ultimately it's that contest that you want to win.

Can you understand where he's coming from when he says, "That last performance against Norway isn't gonna see us through to the final"?

Yes.

So, y- I mean, conspiracy theories in football are, are, are basically a fair load of nonsense.

I mean, they...

In our own country, of course, um, Irvin Khoza, for example, being chairman of the PSL and favoring Orlando Pirates, it took them...

It, uh, he, i-if that was true that he would manipulate things in his team's favor, he did a very bad job.

It took them, what is it, 12, 14 years to finally win the title.

So I think we, we gotta throw all of those conspiracy theories out the window.

Yes

Is this FIFA going against its own statutes?

Well, we've got no evidence that the decision was swayed by anything that Trump must have done, but it certainly does smell to high heaven.

I would suggest that just breaking their own rules by the simple rules of the suspension where a player who.

gets a red card, whether it's justified or not, has to sit out the next matches, you know, been one of the basics of the World Cup for many, many editions.

They tinkered with it and kind of created a little bit of a rod for their own back at the end of the last qualifiers.

You will remember Ronaldo being... sent off in this penultimate qualifier for Portugal against Ireland when they lost in Dublin.

It was a violent conduct red card.

What do you think of what you've seen so far and who's looking like winning it?

Yeah.

He was going on about how, um, Egypt are pressing forward, but they've got four guys still sitting in the midfield, uh, looking a- or, you know, f- six at the back looking after two Australians.

And, and that's been their problem.

It was a big problem at the Cup of Nations.

Uh, Hossam Hassan that coaches, um, ironically, Egypt's all-time greatest goalscorer.

Um, was a magnificent center forward, but he plays the most conservative football.

And I think, um, they made it a lot tougher for themselves than necessary.

Mark?

But just the game itself, should they have been attacking a little bit more?

They should have, b- but whether they could is another story, and I think, uh, maybe we can combine the two because I think the game speaks very much to the big debate about the South African team and the South African league.

As you know, the majority of players, [coughs] excuse me, are drawn from clubs in South Africa, and the reason for that is economically you can earn a good living playing football in the South African league.

You don't necessarily have to go to the Portuguese league or the Swiss league or the Belgian league.

If you can get a Bundesliga transfer or the Premier League, La Liga, et cetera, of course that's a, a cherry on the top.

But, uh, financially, these boys do very well, so there's not that hunger and incentive to go.

And the argument Put forward mainly by the coach Bruce over the last, um, four or five years has been that the, the, the physicality in the South African league is just not strong enough.

Nice way of putting it

We've discussed over many years how underrepresented Africa has been, and more than justifying their extra spots here, Mark.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and a massive turnaround too, given that, um, in Russia, which is only two tournaments ago, 2018, uh, none of the five African sides made it out of the group phase.

You might remember Senegal were a little bit unlucky.

They lost on a count out of yellow cards to Japan.

But for the rest, uh, Morocco, Egypt, uh, Nigeria, all, all knocked out, um, and, and all playing rather poorly.

So it's been a dramatic improvement.

But Mark, this is, this is being too bloated, hasn't it? There hasn't been enough jeopardy surely in the group stage.

[laughs]

... and, and, and fire off, uh, fairly frequently.

It's, um, it's a strange organization.

Look, I... to be fair, logistically, uh, and organizationally here at the World Cup, it's, um, it's its usual competent self.

But those little personal touches which, which is a lot about... of what the game is about, you know, are, uh, are, are really missing.

And I think, uh, the sort of Americanization, for example, of the, of the walkout, I find that...

I don't know if, uh, Philippe agrees with me or he thinks it's a bit petty, but I find that whole walkout thing, American basketball style that they tried at the Club World Cup last year, just, just tinkers with one of the, you know, one of the, one of the fundamentals of a, of an international football match.

Um, I wonder though whether- Despite this being a pretty average Uruguay team in the way Philippe describes it, Mark, I wonder whether they missed the opportunity here because Spain weren't all that either.

What is the post-mortem on the game against France?

I wouldn't say it's a big surprise.

First of all, I would suggest this to you, that I think traditionally over all of the years, African football comes to the World Cup with increasingly better teams.

But still... not with a depth in squad to win a tournament.

And it's got progressively better tournament by tournament.

I would suggest to you that this Senegalese squad that's arrived here is the best in terms of depth that Africa has ever brought to a World Cup and therefore has the best chance to do something.

And when I say do something, you know, to get to a semi-final again or even to get to the final would be, you know, would be a step up for African football.

So far, do you think that sub-Saharan Africa has justified the increase in the number of places it's received?

Secondly, is this going to be an atmosphere where people will get behind Bafana Bafana, split down the middle? What's going on?

Lots of people, John, in Bafana shirts.

They must have made an absolute fortune today.

I'm not sure how many of them are real South Africans, but I think the team has been adopted here by the locals or those who've got tickets.

We are, what, about 45 minutes now from kick-off? No, 40 minutes from kick-off.

It's still, I'd say, only a fifth or so seated, but the concession stores outside with all the fabulous hamburgers and things are certainly doing a roaring trade, so...

It's going to be a game where I think South Africa's players are going to be a little bit surprised at how much backing they're going to get from the crowd, and hopefully that's going to help them.

Sorry

[cheering]

You know, South Africa had come full circle in the sense of its, its horrible past and how it had moved on from being a pariah state and was now, you know, hosting the biggest event in world sport and very much part of the international family.

We are in Africa, and we have to allow them to practice their culture as much as they want to." Here's journalist Mark Gleeson again.

It struck me at that point that that, that that was the turning moment, uh, 'cause I do think it was a bit of an issue for FIFA, whether the vuvuzela was gonna be part of the 2010 World Cup or not.

The, it's a moment I remember very distinctly, and thinking to myself, "This is, this is the vuvuzela now.

We will have the vuvuzela in 2010."

But th- there is a structure around it which a lot of African, um, countries, like my own country, Nigeria, seem to lack.

lack.Yes, and I think that's, uh, perhaps...

It's a bit of a bone of contention.

It's perhaps, uh, a negative and a positive for the national team in the sense that, um, South African footballers generally are well-paid by, by the standards of Africa certainly.

The incentive or the hunger to go and play overseas is not as dramatic as it is i- in the other, uh, regions of the continent.

Uh, a Nigerian, for example, uh, desperately wants to go and play in Europe because his agenda is not only to, um, do well sporting-wise, but to make money and to look after the family and the extended family, and it's, you know, there's a whole ecosystem around a, a footballer from, from that part of the region.

South Africa, it's a little bit different.

I- is there a cohesion about them?

That has to greatly reduce their capacity to intervene.

This is the problem with the private security that's in place right now.

It's more a visual deterrent.

Unless things get significantly out of hand, they can't engage physically with anyone at all.

And many of the individuals causing trouble on public transport will know this and will go and try to provoke a reaction out of security for their benefit.

That's why, you know, we need a recognised... security service with guard the powers that can be deployed and that deals with any ambiguity of authority and will deal with these and ensure that any issue that arises can be dealt with promptly and efficiently.

Is there an element of any of that in this which is if you are an Irish rail user you're not exactly walking through a heavily staffed picturesque environment to get onto your train?

Now, the broken windows theorem is completely valid here, is that we have let things slide.