What would, what would really good built environment look like if we delivered projects that were focused on the outcomes? And I'm, I'm presuming this has societal benefit area as well.

V- very much so.

If we're getting it right, then, then fundamentally it means that we're doing the right projects, 'cause there's no point in doing the wrong project really well, because you might deliver it on time, to budget, and you think, "Yeah, great, that's a success." But if it's the wrong thing, it doesn't actually contribute to better outcomes for people and nature, then, then what was the point? And so I think if we get this right, if we get the systems thinking right, um, then we will spend our money more wisely.

Uh, and it means that we can imagine things like co-investment for co-benefits.

It means that we will be much cleverer about how we get the thing we want rather than just focusing on reducing the cost of the thing that we're doing.

I think there are other things which would be signs of getting it right, 'cause at, at the moment, if I take it up to kind of a really big level, if that's okay, like big, big overview, I think if we look across the whole built environment, um, we see something which is now incredibly complex and interconnected c- 'cause we've been building it for hundreds of years, yet we keep adding to it, and what we've now got is quite amazing.

But if you just consider it for a moment-Every part of it depends on every other part of it.

Where, where's a good starting point for getting into systems thinking and engaging with others on this?