He says the money at the center of the dispute was not siphoned out of South Africa, and that the model only worked if the value came back into the country.

If somebody was in fact siphoning off anywhere close to that money out of this country, uh, that would be a, a moral and legal failure.

And, and so to stop there and say that's understandable, their reaction.

Did it come out of the blue? Uh, the media storm, absolutely.

Uh, and there's some context that we can speak to a bit later on what I think might be happening there.

But the, the amount of money involved is not, uh, an amount that has been, uh, somehow siphoned out of the country and, and lost to the Republic forever.

In fact, it's the exact opposite.

What is, what is the argument there? What's the, what's the issue that has actually landed, uh, Castello in such hot water, if not in fact, but at least in the media?

Well, uh, the, the answer to that question from the other side of this equation would be still wearing, uh, for the moment my Castello hat, uh, that there were a number of indicators, uh, present for the regulator that, that combined constituted reasonable grounds for suspicion to proceed with an investigation.

So the, uh, the, the feeling that an investigator might have, um, is not quite the same as saying a, uh, in their estimation, a relatively low bar has been attained to impose a blocking order and proceed with the investigation.

But your question, I think, uh, trying to simplify it a bit for people.

I think your description of the flow is quite accurate.

Uh, I think it helps people understand what's going on.

Uh, the, the, the concern for the regulator, and there are multiple regulators involved here, is that the, the client, uh, might not have been, uh, appropriately party to every transaction.

But how are you interpreting it?

And talk us through your season because, uh, it was one where you were, you seemed to have momentum, if we were to put it on a graph, where you just edged over Waterford in a Munster final, and from there something ignited, and the whole championship after that has been an upward trajectory in a major way.

Yeah.

You know, we, we won the National League last year, um, and we won the Munster final last year, and we fell at the semi-final.

So in the off-season we looked at it and we just felt that, you know, if, if you were to play every game available to you, you would be playing 18 intercounty games, and that just seemed a stretch too far in this day and age.

Um, uh, so what we did was, um, we, we, we actually just looked at a lot of fringe players in, in the National League.

We played a lot of fringe and rested a m- a lot, a lot of the experienced players.

Um, we rested them, uh, for, for months even, you know? So- I think that's paid dividends.

As a neutral looking in, would you think this is gonna be a cracker or a dour kind of game, or what sort of a match do you think will develop?

Mm.

It has to come from this independent selection panel that puts forward a board.

And once all of that's done, then the new 13-person board must, from its own ranks, elect its own chairperson independently.

And if you do this, you're able to get people out of... that used to be in politics out of this board equation.

Clement, I want to quickly stop on something else that Rob said earlier, because there's the risk here that we imagine that by fixing the board, all of the problems goes away.

You know, um, Rob said that, uh, we feel like we've gone back to the pre-Mparty findings, but the fact is we've always been there.

It's, it's simply that the PIC kept confidently telling us that all the Mpati recommendations, the, the operational recommendations, not the legislative ones that we're now talking about, the operational ones have been implemented successfully.

What role have you been playing as Parliament, and do you think Parliament should establish its own inquiry into the current governance and leadership crisis there at the PIC?

What is the story behind Dlamini's, uh, suspension?

Well, there's the, there's the camp that remains at the PIC and the version that they would give you, and then there's, uh, perhaps the, the real version and then our limited perspective on the inner workings and power dynamics there.

I can probably, uh, most speak to the, to, to our perspective of what's happening, but maybe let's briefly touch on their alleged reasons.

They say that, uh, Dlamini has misled Parliament, that he commissioned a PWC investigation into the Lanseria transaction, uh, and, and that, uh, he's acted effectively without board authority, uh, in doing so and, and in doing other things, and therefore he's now being given the time and space to respond to these allegations.

Uh, I am not saying that I think, uh, that Dlamini is, uh, particularly in the clean and, and, and good camp.

Um, from everything we've seen, it, it seems that at any given moment a group of people is on the take at the PIC, and our job is to make sure that nobody's on the take at the PIC, and tho- those who have historically been.

Um, maybe just quickly touching on the Lanseria transaction, uh, for your audience.

What exactly is a Section one three five, so that we can understand the terminology here?

The PIC is a financial services provider.

Amongst many other things, it's also the largest asset manager on the continent, controlling three point five trillion rand in assets, if their numbers are to be believed.

And, and part of being a financial services provider means being regulated by the Financial Services Conduct Authority.

And the FSCA has the right to ask numerous questions, uh, including whether people are complying with their fiduciary duty, whether they are being transparent in their dealings.

And it is a unique moment for one, uh, uh, reputable state institution to be investigating another reputable state institution.

Uh, for your listeners, the Public Investment Corporation effectively manages a big pool of money on behalf of the GEBF, which is the Government Employees Pension Fund.

W- what is the story behind Dlamini's suspension?

What exactly is your beef with him?

Well, interpersonally, I try and maintain good relations with everybody in Parliament, including David Massander, who's quite an affable individual when you shake his hand.

But your question is, how does it feel at the moment within the GNU? How does it feel within Parliament? I'll circle back to perhaps the Ashore-Soripan and David Massander relationship, which I couldn't speak to a great detail in.

But maybe just touch on two other data points, which is what seems to be playing out here is a battle between the grouping of people behind one David Massandu and the grouping of people aligned with Minister Inok Korongwana.

it does not seem that those two ANC deployees are singing from the same hymn sheet at the moment.

And it does seem that, without saying who's right or who's wrong in this equation, that Lamini, the now suspended CEO, to an extent enjoyed the support of the minister and clearly did not enjoy the support of the deputy minister who happens to serve as the chairperson of the PIC.

So that's perhaps the more interesting question.

How are you seeing all of this?

Keep an eye open this afternoon for the extended interview in the BizNews Edge, and then the full director's cut interview, which is available on premium for members only.

For your listeners, the Public Investment Corporation effectively manages a big pool of money on behalf of the GPF, which is the Government Employees' Pension Fund, and that's either people who have served the state through the course of their lives and are now pensioners or, or those that are still contributing to their pension one day.

It also now represents, as we said earlier, a large chunk of cash on the continent, but, uh, one of the last [chuckles] remaining outposts of, uh, feeding trough for, for people to try and get their, their grubby hands on.

And the way they do this is they go after the unlisted section.

I call this the elephant and the, and the mouse problem.

They say, "Well, you know, 95% of what we do, do is, uh, boring listed investments," and, and that, you know, uh, is, is into listed companies and sometimes there are issues, um, as we've seen with, with firms such as Steinhoff.

But for the most part, that's a highly regulated space and the, uh, the checks and balances and governance are such that, uh, there aren't too many scandals in that space.

Sure.