Are you saying that there was finally an appetite for these conversations in Westminster?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Not only from the MPs, but also from the government, the government ministers.

Because the thing is, there's one thing about the MPs, backbench MPs from all parties, but also they don't necessarily have the power to make decisions.

They can argue and can lobby, they can...

Obviously, whole debates, the International Men's Day debate was a masterclass, the best International Men's Day ever.

But we've had great debates in Parliament in the last year on paternity pay and boys' education, for example.

And I believe you, as chair of Mankind, nor any other organisation for men, or any male victim we're consulted with, And that sounds obviously a very different picture to the one you're painting now where politicians are actively engaging with you now.

Has our understanding of what it means to be a strong man changed over years? Has it been diluted? And the question is, has it been diluted by men or women or both?

Well, well, that, that's a very good question.

I, I was thinking about that last night, and I think, I, I think there's two things that have changed.

First of all, it's being more accepting about what strength means w-with a man.

So a-as, as the question you said, it used to be very much about, say, uh, physical strength, mental strength.

But also, uh, what we've seen in the last 10 years is that it's been broadened to, to... with, with respect to it's strength to bring up a family, it's strength to show emotion, it's strength to, uh, visibly show that you care for somebody.

Whereas perhaps t- even 10 years ago, it wasn't, it, it wasn't, um, that wasn't seen as being an acceptable show of strength.

Um, Mark, when did it become a competition between men and women?

What do we do? How do we ensure, while we still pay attention to the challenges that girls and women are faced with, what do we do to better support boys to be the best that they can be and active members of our communities at all levels?

Thank you.

There's a bit of a journey and then I'll go into a bit of a detail.

So in terms of the journey, I mean, where we've got to now is that we've got people generally, when I say that I'm talking about government, local councils, broader society and academics and charities and others.

actually accepting, they're looking at the data.

I mean, part of the problem was the data.

I'm a bit of a data geek, but I'm only interested in the data because the stories the data tell.

What would you say to that?