Thanks be to God.

Do you believe in the Church? We say these words in the Nicene Creed every second week.

We believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Catholic meaning universal and Apostolic meaning founded on the Apostles' teaching.

We believe in the Church, that's what we say.

But is the Church we believe in, the Church of Acts chapter 2? So let me ask you, what was your honest reaction to this picture of the church we just read? Hands up who was encouraged by what they heard, that though they may be somewhat of a gap between this ideal and our experience, you're motivated to work together to become the generous community God has made us to be.

Anyone? Anyone encouraged? Well, you may have been discouraged, anyone who was discouraged by what they heard, by the seemingly massive chasm between what we should be and what we actually are.

All right, last point then.

So tell me a bit about being Machiavellian then.

So being Machiavellian, I, I worked-- I was invited in by a, a really, I thought, a very interesting minister, Edwina Hart, who took responsibility for the economy and then transport, invited me in to do the Metro Impact Study.

I went in-- After doing that work, I went into government on her request to kind of lead development work.

I realized that the Metro being in her department and not-- it wasn't a cabinet project, it was a transport kind of, um, project, in an, in a reserved area with all of the politics around the cabinet table was probably not gonna happen, right? And I think she probably knew that, and probably James Price knew it.

I, the only-- I realized the only way to make this happen was going to get the First Minister on board.

So I, I, I, again, I documented this.

I went out.

... how you were able to change the tone of the conversation from why we can't to why, why we can and how we can.