So tell us about your perspective on this, Manuel, in terms of what's going on with this dichotomy, this split between the body and the mind, cognitions and body, whatever we want to, just however we want to describe it.

Well, for me, it's a very interesting topic since being a psychologist, we usually talk about mental health.

Even talking about that, it's like the rest, where is that embodied in a way? So I think we have in psychology a long-standing tradition of not including that much somatic or other aspects or felt sense or...

even more physical stuff around mental health.

And it became for me an issue because I have chronic disease.

And when I was diagnosed when I was 19, nobody knew what was happening to me.

And they tend to kind of tell, well, that's psychological.

And I think a lot of stuff gets, gets shoved under because there's just so much, so much messaging around body.