So, and it's obviously a political decision, where have the politics gone wrong that's allowed that to happen?

Well, it's a complex question.

And obviously, knowing that we're going to be talking about this today, I've thought about it a lot.

But trying to prioritise or say that this is the one central element that is wrong is virtually impossible because so much flows from it.

But the calibre of leadership in all spheres of life is really, really critical.

We can see examples of marvellous leadership in various places and absolutely abject, even laughable if it wasn't so serious, awful examples in others.

But when we're looking at leadership in education, we find that when we look around the country, that in ministerial positions, in secretarial positions, as chief executive officer positions around the country, there are people who are not teachers.

Your take on that?