And we sort of have that push and pull between art and science and it sort of makes up the fabric of climbing culture where do you see the zine and how do you see you know the climbing zines place as well as the podcast in you know this dynamic that's so critical to how we experience climbing and how climbing will evolve into the future

Dude, that's a hard question.

We might need to break this down a little bit.

Yeah, break it down.

Yeah.

So I have the artsy-fartsy in my genes, in my DNA.

I am a poet first.

And I've talked to you before about this and how it's not just about cleaning up the crag it seems more meaningful to you um can you talk about your experiences you know being a steward so you're a climber you're a publisher but you're also a steward you do you seem to do a lot of things for the climbing community and i'm wondering sort of how that responsibility fits in with the rest of your identity as a climber