Just to sort of follow up on that, when does the stability, though, mean that they have to open up? What do you think is that pinch point where, frankly, the economy becomes so stagnant and the country becomes in such a detrimental position that reaching out to the world is the only option left for the government?

Gus Pannier and I have been asking this question for 20 years.

So basically, there is not an answer.

There is not an answer to that.

We thought that after 2015, 2016, when the economic crisis became very severe and very hard, the government had no choice but to open because the structure of the gas deal with China forced them to seek alternative routes, alternative revenue sources.

But no, they navigated the crisis, they crushed the population even more, and they managed to survive on one elite, you know, buying up corruption through the revenues of just one pipeline, which is the China Central Asia Pipeline.

I thought the COVID thing would change.

What is the great achievement of Turkmenistan in 35 years of independence?

Um, um, what then about, like, the, the more, uh, traditional, I guess, like, authoritarian practices that the regimes employed to main- maintain control over that messaging?

Yeah.

So I mean, I have a fairly extensive catalog of, um, the repression that was done, particularly to, to, to media o- o- operators.

And, uh, one of the thing which I find very interesting was the data contestation.

So of course, this is a pan-- this is an emergency, COVID that is, that happened at a time which, uh, large data, you know, i- is a big, is a, is a big thing g- globally.

So there was contestation about the data because, of course, um, a government that presides over a country with fewer deaths and fewer co- con-- um, cases of COVID is, is inevitably more successful.

So everyone tried to diminish, um, to misrepresent the numbers.

Uh, uh, how did Turkmenistan's cooperation with the WHO contribute to regime consolidation?

Um, um, what then about, like, the, the more, uh, traditional, I guess, like, authoritarian practices that the regimes employed to main-maintain control over that messaging?

Yeah.

So I mean, I have a fairly extensive catalog of, um, the repression that was done, particularly to, to, to media o- o-operators.

And, uh, one of the thing which I find very interesting was the data contestation.

So of course, this is a pan-- this is an emergency, I mean, COVID, that is, that happened at a time which, uh, large data, you know, i-is a big, is, is a big thing g-globally.

So there was contestation about the data because, of course, um, a government that presides over a country with fewer deaths and fewer co-con, um, cases of COVID is, is inevitably more successful.

So everyone tried to diminish, um, to misrepresent the numbers.

And I told you that that's

What then about the more traditional, I guess, authoritarian practices that the regime's employed to maintain control over that messaging?

Yes, I mean, I have a fairly extensive catalog of the repression that was done, particularly to media operators.

And one of the things which I find very interesting was the data compensation.

So, of course, this is a...

This is an emergency coming, COVID that is, that happened at a time in which large data is a big thing globally.

So there was contestation about the data because, of course, a government that presides over a country with fewer deaths and fewer cases of COVID is inevitably more successful.

So everyone tried... to diminish, to misrepresent the numbers.

How did Turkmenistan's cooperation with the WHO contribute to regime consolidation?

So could you help me understand a little bit better this parallel, this historical parallel that you're drawing? One of the

things that I felt I have to do, one of the stories that I felt I had to tell before really going into the COVID situation Part of the book was showing how crisis had been managing in Central Asia in the last 100 years.

So the chapter you're talking about, it's a long duré chapter.

The chapter looks at 100-year crisis management.

And of course, the division had to be between Soviet Central Asia and post-Soviet Central Asia.

So I ended up looking at, I unpack, actually, I unpack crisis management in response to communication and internationalization in the book.

And then I look at how these phases of management of crisis were dealt with at Soviet times.

I'm wondering if you could just talk us maybe through a couple of the cases that you look at and what that tells us, really, again, about the willingness of governments to listen to differing views and differing facts.