So give us a quick rundown on the size of the lodges and why somebody would go to lodge A as opposed to lodge B.

Okay.

Well, as I mentioned, there are five lodges and each is really developed and designed to cater to a very different guest.

The game reserve is big, 12,000 hectares.

For your listeners, they probably won't be able to conceptualize that, but it's a very, very large area.

So five lodges, you don't get the sense that there are five lodges within that area when you're seeing any one of them.

So let me start with Main Lodge.

uniqueness of the region.

And it does seem again, listening to you in passionate conversation about this issue, as if progress is being made in at least in that part of the world, taking us towards that global target.

Absolutely.

It's such an amazing part of the world to live and work, John.

If you go back in the 37-year history that you were referring to, in those lands, this whole area was farmland, except for Addo, which was very small, only 12,000 hectares, and the Great Fish, which was also very small, probably about 4,000 hectares.

And in that time, the private reserves in the area between Port Elizabeth and Kensington-on-Sea were just beyond... have put 150,000 hectares under protection.

Adder Elephant Park has grown to about 150,000 hectares and boasts one of the most successful black rhino breeding programs globally.

And the Fish River Sun has grown to about 60,000 hectares, also boasting one of the most successful black rhino breeding programs.

And If you don't, if you don't make these luxury lodge experiences economically meaningful to the much poorer communities who live on the fringes of these reserves, then the whole project is doomed.