Talk to me about that experience of getting published and that journey, because I got the sense that there would have been a very personal element A lot of trust with you.

Oh, big time.

You know, it's interesting.

At the time I wrote this, I was very ready to share the story.

It was like I'd gone through all these motions and I came to a natural completion.

And it felt like I was comfortable with...

the topic of fertility and IVF because I grew up with a dad who happened to have that exact profession and then I was comfortable talking about having this embryo that I didn't know and other people around me weren't as comfortable talking about that and they also would kind of whisper to me I also have embryos on ice and I don't know what to do.

Just like overwhelmingly.

And we get to Sydney and you can

guess what happens next.

First, there was the fires and we just left California where there was a bushfire every year.

And we're like, this is even worse.

Like never seen one so horrible.

And then COVID happened and we were okay.

Initially thinking the middle of 2020, we were going to return to the U.S. and transfer the embryo.

I was like, but sometimes

Can you talk me through that process, say, for the memoir and for the fiction? Sure.

Yes.

So I had a very wonderful teacher in the U S named Mary Adkins.

She has a writer's podcast called the first draft club.

And that's how I came across her.

And she gave me this great advice to start with a big question.

Like what is a big thorny question? kind of ethical question where as a writer you're curious about it so you want to dive deeply and follow that question through where you're not hitting the nail on the head the whole story but it's something you're exploring in the work is always tapping into that question and That way you can kind of look at the pros and cons and these different perspectives.

tell me where where do you get your inspiration from i mean obviously the memoir is a memoir so you got the inspiration from your own life and thought this is a this is a interesting thing that i think other people might want to know about but for your fiction um and maybe for the work that you've done before where do you get your inspiration from

... you're wrestling with.

I wish I knew the answers, Libby.

[laughs] But let me tell you, after having had cancer, I was feeling very self-righteous of having the opportunity not to pass on the gene that brought this cancer in the first place when I was otherwise healthy, and young, and living my life.

And I was like, "Wow, I would not pass that on if I could help it," because that's the only way I know how to prevent it, right? So why aren't insurance companies having people do this and paying for [laughs] the IVF, right? But then once it got down to the results and you see it on paper, it's a lot harder to feel self-righteous and to know, because even there could be something else, right, that happens or manifests.

And also, the biggest thing that I came to terms with was, like, my parents didn't have this choice, and if they did, I wouldn't be here, right? If they were like, "Oh, no, we [laughs] you know, don't wanna have that experience for our child," and man, do they feel a lot of guilt for the experiences I've had and not being able to prevent it.

And now that I'm a parent, I would feel that, too, right? And before, I just really had to think about it for me and my experience, and then I couldn't decide.

[laughs] And, um, you know, went up and down many times because these aren't very black and white and clear-cut decisions, and everybody is unique in what they think and can handle, I think.

What was your sort of, quote, "path to publication" like?