yeah that was that was good then that's good So what made you

walk away from all of that? So, yeah, when I trained as a counsellor and as a therapist, it was within the church.

So I grew up very, very religious.

My parents weren't particularly religious, although they took me to Sunday school.

We weren't a Christian household.

We, well, we were, but culturally.

I wouldn't say we, I mean, we barely said grace other than at Christmas over a meal.

What point did you realise that you were in control of your self-development and you got in debt to do a course?