I mean, I assume that that's what you're arguing, that that's the thing that needs to be really given attention to.

It's so many parts.

So yes, it shatters the role that we play as that person's chosen person, right? So one thing that you'll hear betrayed spouses say a lot is you are my person.

Well, the grief around being unchosen and unsafe in your most chosen safe relationship in life is the first kind of shattering that happens.

But then the shattering that also follows maybe at the same time, maybe shortly thereafter, is the perception that you've built of yourself as part of a family unit, as part of that partnership, as the roles that you play inside of that world.

It really breaks down every single part way that you have presented yourself to the world.

And especially in today's day and age, that is so layered and painful.

Why is that not an outrageous thing to ask for someone who's been wronged?

And that question is, should I stay or should I go? What do you think they're actually asking?

Do I have permission to make this choice for myself? And how do I know if I can stay and not be hurt again or if I can leave and be okay?

Before you eventually noticed that your husband wasn't doing the same kind of work, what did that teach you about trying to control the outcome?

So much.

And that's what we're all trying to do.

Everyone on all sides of the triangle, so deeply trying to control the outcome.

It taught me that I can only control myself, that I need to stop doing the work that is more than just mine, right? So I believed that if I just work hard enough, then I can fix and do anything in my life.

That's great in so many ways.

Is your life different, better for having been jumped? It's absolutely better.

Again, would not wish it on my worst enemy.

It is better because of the personal freedom that I have engaged around what was available to me, not by being in service to somebody who was a taker, but by giving all of that energy I was giving to somebody else to myself.

And I think that betrayed spouses, whether they stay or go, the ones who end up better are the ones who hit that shift point of like the great bottom and then go, I need to pour into myself.

Because there's going to be no me if I keep on pouring out of myself.

So I've seen people who stay or go who end up in that space where it really is about loving and feeling your own worth as much as you have felt the worth of the people that you love in your life.

That's the real shift point in my eyes.

I

So I would love to hear if you'd like to share a little of your story, your background, what has gotten you into this kind of work?

Yeah, so I think it's so important to speak to all sides.

And I truly think that healing happens so much stronger and faster when we take the time to understand viewpoints and experiences that aren't only ours.

And for me, I was already a licensed psychotherapist.

I had a private practice and I was married with a little baby at home.

And I ended up discovering that my then husband was having a full blown affair.

It was one of those situations where it had been going on for so long that the red flags in my own relationship just slowly deteriorated my life, my sense of what was normal anymore, my sense of what to expect in my relationship.

Why do you think that shame sounds identical, even though stories are opposite, and And what would you say we can do to begin to release it and walk in freedom after it?

And if it did happen, you were instantly like something was wrong, like you failed blame shame and so many different things and i also think you know i'm curious your take on this you know which then led to this huge shift in divorce rates which then has then i think the impact less people wanting to get married so quickly or so young and just this systemic ripple from this topic and i'm curious a for you what is it that you think most people don't know about this topic that you were surprised to learn and then b you know how you got into this work and What in your story was like, I've got to go there, you know? And so I'd love for you to share both parts to that.

Yes.

Well, what's clear to me is that it is so much more frequent than any of us know or speak about.

So the story that you just shared is perfect.

I had a very similar upbringing.

Two parents were still together.

Everyone in my neighborhood was married.

just like the original shock and awe and just the natural like it's like those first like it's like you know dysregulation critical what do you do from that but then even the decision of where do you go from there because it isn't and more often than not i actually have had a lot of couple friends that are like we worked through that and i was like that's even an option people could work through that and then other situations it didn't make sense right and there were different circumstances and so i just would love for you to kind of speak to that a little bit and particularly maybe from the perspective of someone that might be navigating a version of this right now or has and maybe hasn't fully had the opportunity for healing within themselves.

So I would love if you could talk about that, like, people wanting to make it work, the shame that can come along with that, and, and yeah, that experience.

Mm, it's huge, and I would say my book in and of itself is, even though it's a healing guide for betrayal, a self-healing guide, it is equally as useful for someone who stays as someone who goes, because it really calls everything into question when you face the thing that culturally and societally we all believe is the deal breaker.

And all of us say, "I would just leave if.

I would just leave if." And I said it to myself.

I even said it to my husband.

And then what did I do? I did everything I could to salvage what I had, because you're in survival mode.

You're in crisis mode.

But it takes a while to get there, and I imagine with infidelity, the pendulum is just, "I hate them, I hate myself, our relationship wasn't real, I wanna grasp onto what we had." So, you know, taking the time, allowing time to just bring that pendulum more to the middle.