And it didn't really work, right? So when you saw that happen for the first time, were you a little disillusioned? Or do you still believe that it's the future, but the team to build it hasn't really built it yet?

so um we had always been very bullish in the perpetual future format right like that instrument itself is the thing that we had conviction in um we liked bitmex you know we loved bitmex back in the day um But obviously BitMEX had been targeted by the regulators and they had been forced to put up guardrails on their business that was ultimately detrimental to them.

It also forced the founders into a risk-off posture where they almost didn't want to compete.

They'd made a bunch of money and they were now optimizing for a very different kind of outcome, which is like, you know, their freedom.

And this had really shifted the market.

And so where the epicenter of perps were had kind of been a moving target for a while.

And these were sort of uninvestable ideas.

Like, what happened for you to be like, oh, maybe I can do this?