So can you walk us a bit through that and help us explain, as someone who's seen what RCTs do on the ground, why are you right now interested in expanding the knowledge production system?

Well, I don't need that much encouragement to talk about that experience.

I would say that in my career, and perhaps what I'm more known for, I have enjoyed thinking about big picture issues, social determinants of health, primary health care, types of research, implementation research.

But I will say that probably two of the most satisfying experiences in my career were one, as you say, working on randomized control trials to provide safety and efficacy and immunogenicity data for a new meningococcal vaccine to enable licensure and then roll out to children in New Zealand.

That was 25 years ago.

And then the other, which I think also is relevant, is my time as incident manager for WHO at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic.

in Cambodia.

So what do you mean by doing research differently? What does that mean in a practical sense? And how are you envisioning this global learning component of the work?

right? And

they've produced a very strong voice about what communities don't appreciate about the way say universities or other research institutions function, right? So I think that's very important.

I think one of the things we need to do is that there's a lot of status in the sort of institutions that produce knowledge and research.

But as this world is changing, we should reflect on what are we good at, but what aren't we so good at? And we need to practice followership as much as leadership, right? So it's not about us just talking to communities, but it's us respecting communities, other groups, as equal partners in knowledge generation.

Actually, there are some things they're much better at generating knowledge, and they're already doing it without our permission.

And I think if we can do that, have a respectful conversation, reflect on our failings, reflect on what we're good at, and realize that as the Thais say, you really need the knowledge producers, the social movements, the politicians, you need all the society to come together to create transformational change.

The best thing about this gathering and this meeting is that most of the people here, I don't know, And these people from different disciplines, from different perspectives, people who disagree.

So as I said, complete pleasure.