What is something that designers typically miss when they're thinking about creating their apps or their experiences for other people?

Yeah, I think we always think that people, again, kind of back to this status quo, I think there's an assumption that folks will just go through the flow.

And instead of kind of narrowly saying every single moment of friction is a potential for them to leave or drop off.

Now, sometimes friction is good and it increases my motivation and having sunk costs is wonderful.

We're more committed.

But many times up front, if we're giving people friction, all of a sudden they're weighing the benefit of your app, which they don't know, they've never used or making an appointment, you know, with a... telehealth doctor or syncing their bank account at a fintech app.

So they're weighing this trade off of what is the friction and what is the benefit at every single moment.

Do you have any time where this friction, something that you can name, of course, within your NDAs and all this we were discussing before the interview, is there a moment where you saw this tension building up and you helped the client navigate through this?

Just not enough sample size,

yeah.

And so the takeaway there is not, you know, you can't do it.

You can definitely crowd out internal motivation.

But it's a little bit more that you want to create environments that support and praise internal motivation, as well as giving people rewards when they need to get rewards.

And extrinsic or salaries, because we want salaries.

Extrinsic motivation is really good for getting started, right? So if you're especially kind of, if you're doing a task and maybe it's a salesperson that's like, we're going to go after kind of a really hard client or a really hard new category, it's like, that's actually much harder than that.

Going