So what was that like and how have you managed that over time? I

think it was more than 150 million, to be honest, but like even more.

Also good.

I would say that in general, we, I mean, I was like, as a founder, you have different kinds of weights on your shoulder, right? And for me, I mean, I can just maybe speak personally for myself now and for Peter and Jürgen as well, but for myself, it was also from the start on the weight of our colleagues and employees because I mean you're providing them a job and some or many of them have families and so which they also providing their livelihoods with the job that they're having through us so this was already a weight I think on our shoulders where the difference I probably always think is the majority of people and being employed in a startup they don't even have this really understanding about the entrepreneurial perspective ah, this maybe could go wrong.

And compared to 120 years existing corporate, which has probably a higher chance of existing 120 years than the average startup, is a more risky employment that you have as a person.

But for us, it was really important because we believe that The foundation of success is also the culture that you have in the company.

This means the people that are working together with you.

yeah no that makes a lot of sense i can also see how for some brands maybe that doesn't fit their business model because maybe they do just want people to continuously just buy new and new and new and maybe they don't build for quality but they build for return customers so no that's really interesting on a personal note being a founder as you know is extremely challenging what keeps you up at night at the moment that it's not mission driven but more on the business side what what are your biggest challenges

What was most defining, do you think, for making that category really stand?

Maybe we could probably do a whole podcast episode just on the consumer trust aspect because there's so much to learn in the specific field, I think, on secondhand.

But we are, of course, also active with refurbished products.

I mean, first of all, I think that the majority of customers, they... don't really trust a used product, and specifically in electronics.

People consider with a used smartphone, for example, that it was broken down, a car ran over it, it's totally destroyed, or the previous older data is still on the devices, all of these kind of negative habits, which maybe they also had experience through peer-to-peer transaction, when they purchased something on a Facebook marketplace, or C2C platforms.

So we really had to convince these customers that a refurbished product has nothing to do with a used peer-to-peer sale.

Because of this 40 steps process, for example, where there's professional and certified data deletion, so no previous owner data will be found, but also that the components which are replaced are replaced with high quality spare parts.

Well, this might be a much trickier question, but what was the key to scale so much? And which market surprised you the most, negatively or positively?