Yeah, always.

Get right in with like a really good, boring headline.

And get everybody really drowsy before we get into the fun part.

But no, I think our regular listeners will remember a lot of this or have been tracking a lot of this for a few years, right? The state still wants Chinese companies, Chinese tech companies to invest more in basic research, particularly in strategic technologies.

those are the obvious ones, AI, quantum, blockchain, etc.

And they also want tech companies to participate in some of these national science and technology projects.

So that means getting in the room with researchers, with universities, and really starting to kind of push the frontier forward on some of those emerging technology fields.

Do you kind of agree with that assessment that that's part of what's going on here?

Why don't you talk us through, I know you've got a big picture understanding of what's going on here and also the different priorities that policymakers might be balancing when they're thinking through this stuff.

Yeah, totally.

So we don't know exactly what MovCom is going to do or specifically how they're going to approach this.

I'll come back to my hypothesis on what tools they might use maybe later in the podcast.

But we do know what considerations...

Beijing is trying to balance right now.

It's trying to balance three considerations.

Well, can you talk us through the clues? Like what forms you think they might take?

So yeah, let's talk about it.

I mean, I think what we're doing is the issue, and it is sort of half the issue.

So I think many of our listeners probably will have already used an LLM programmatically.

They will have tried to interact with an, an LLM.

They, they are coders themselves or are vibe coding apps and stuff like that.

But, uh, there's also a large sub-segment of listeners, I think, who probably haven't done that and don't really understand what the cost issue is.

We have had a sort of intimate experience with understanding where Chinese models are kind of winning the day and where they aren't.

Can you talk actually just a little bit more about the channels through which you see, and again, Chinese policymakers or others, non-Chinese policymakers see, like, what avenues are there for data to be a growth driver, generally speaking? I, I think that'd be interesting for listeners as well.

So you mentioned a caveat, which was, this is just for consumer-facing applications, which means something like manufacturing wouldn't show up on there, right?

Yeah.

Not only does...

Okay, not only does manufacturing not show up, what also doesn't show up is any LLM released that doesn't have a, like, a chatbot.

If you're not s-- let's say you take a model and you make it, and you list it on Hugging Face, but you don't offer any consumer-facing anything with it.

You don't do anything with it other than list it, and you say, "This is totally open weight," right? Um, that doesn't require registration, technically.

And so that leaves this gaping hole open in the security apparatus in terms of controlling the release of, of models.

But is there any company, uh, that, that sort of came up in your research, uh, while you were going through the data that we should sort of keep an eye on? Uh, I say that-- I ask this also because, um, um, because I know the motivation for you, uh, for your team to go through the data was after DeepSeek to find sort of the next deep DeepSeek, so to speak.