So map us through that path.

Yeah, my last year or so of the F-111 flying, I was a squadron leader posted into the wing in a headquarters role.

And I participated as the F-111 representative to a project called Aviation Risk Management.

And that was as a result of a bunch of flying accidents that had resulted in fatalities across the Air Force and Army.

And I helped to develop the aviation risk management program.

And then when I left the Air Force, I went to Qantas and I flew for nine years there as well.

And in the course of the spare time I had, I consulted back to that project and from there developed a real passion for risk management and aviation.

Going more broadly, Keith, I guess for someone listening um to this who's fascinated by aviation but doesn't necessarily want to become a pilot um looking at some of the other areas you're doing in terms of airport planning and aviation consultant what does that actually entail

Will this start-up, this budget Ryanair-based start-up called Zinc, will it be any different?

Yeah, you're right, Tom.

There's a long history of airlines having a go and not succeeding.

So it's hard not to be a bit sceptical.

But again, this new proposal is different, has a different model, and it centres around operating from Western Sydney airports which isn't constrained like the main Sydney airport is with curfews and slot constraints.

And that's the difference that they're putting forward.

Do you think investors will want to pump money into this?

I think there's a bit of money sloshing around the place and always there'll be people interested in being associated with an airline.