So how have you put this kind of regulatory stewardship theory into practice yourself?

Well, I'll start with an example that's probably got some similarities to Adams at the sort of operation, in some ways the operational level of stewardship, relating to the system for ensuring safety in the port and harbour environment while I was at Maritime New Zealand.

There are, of course, legal requirements in the Maritime Transport Act and in maritime rules that apply to that environment.

But since 2004, there's been an enhanced focus on it because of the risk.

And as people appreciate in New Zealand, ports, harbour environments are critical to New Zealand, both in sort of social and economic terms, domestically, internationally, connection, that kind of thing.

And there's a lot of risks and there's a lot of complexity in that environment.

There's a number of parties involved.

But how have you managed any problems with the concept or maybe evolved the way that you understand regulatory stewardship to cope with the real-life dilemmas that you're facing?

Was there a moment where you started to see regulation as a, a single discipline as opposed to a, a series of jobs?

Yeah, it was after, um, so I went to the Ministry of Consumer Affairs.

So I was the head of the ministry, which was a small ministry within a bigger ministry, which was the Ministry for Economic Development.

So it was around, um, markets and competition and, uh, consumer protection sort of tucked into it.

In that organization, it's got multiple regulatory systems, uh, even more since it morphed into a larger, more multifunctional kind of organization.

And I could see the similarity of the reg- of, of what was being done across regulatory activities within that organization and thought, "Wouldn't it be good if we all kind of work together?" Uh, before I was able to do anything, um, really useful in that regard within the MED, I actually moved to another organization for regula- uh, regulation of gambling and censorship and the like.

Also a multidimensional organization.

perspective.If we take stewardship as a, as a well-understood, uh, concept, but, uh, less often described as a, as a practical discipline, what did it actually look like in, in the agencies you led on a day-to-day basis?