So that is an interesting peek into like the fractures within this MAGA brand itself.

Yeah, it is.

It is interesting as it's becoming bigger and becoming more like code- they're trying to codify it a little bit as an organization or as a group, how you're starting to see some of those little cracks form.

I mean, getting to the, the question which has been coming up about this, does this mean that we should be reaching out to these people because there is this variation in beliefs, and that we have the opportunity as people who, I don't know, believe in vaccines, to talk to these people and bring them back? Is it politically something that's worthwhile to bring those people into the margins? That last part, I don't know, I, 'cause I don't, I don't really have a great sense of, you know, how politically this group will function in the next coming elections.

I don't really know if AOC has to do the outreach that she's been doing and that's been getting a lot of press.

I do think the question from just the public health standpoint is a really interesting one, and it's one I'm really grappling with.

What do we do? Do we in this country need MAGA? Does public health need MAGA? That's a, that's a literal question that has been asked by some very smart public health people online, some of which are ...

But you know what you can do right now is listen to House of Pod if you want some real information [laughs] about public health.

So th- that is an interesting peek into, like, the fractures within this MAHA brand itself.

Yeah, it is.

It is interesting, as it's becoming bigger and becoming more, like, codi- they're trying to codify it a little bit as an organization or as a group, how you're starting to see some of those little cracks form.

I mean, getting to the, the question which has been coming up about this, does this mean that we should be reaching out to these people because there is this variation in beliefs, and that we have the opportunity as people who, I don't know, believe in vaccines, to talk to these people and bring them back.

Is it politically something that's worthwhile to bring those people into the margins? That last part I don't know, I, 'cause I don't, I don't really have a great sense of, you know, how politically this group will function in the next coming elections.

I don't really know if AOC has to do the outreach that she's been doing and that's been getting a lot of press.

I do think the question from just the public health standpoint is a really interesting one.

But you know what you can do right now is listen to House of Pod if you want some real information [laughs] about public health.

Right

... what it, what it brought to my memory bank was when I was doing my psychiatry rotation in, in medical school, I was one of two people lucky or unlucky, depending on your perspective, to do it in jail.

So I had to spend two months in jail, um, dealing with patients there, people going through extreme stress, as you might imagine.

Okay.

If you're arrested and you're facing some terrible crime.

Right.

Um, it was a very interesting experience and it... and I'm glad I did it.

[upbeat music]

They have workouts every day of the week, except Sunday.

Yeah.

I mean, that's great.

I mean, you put in the time, that commitment.

One thing about getting a trainer, which I think is a great idea.

My gym offers trainers and at least one free training session.

But part of my schedule is that I go when I can.

community? It doesn't have to be.

Probably not in March, April 2020, right?

In April 2020 in New York, there were two thou- 24,687 deaths in New York City.

That's all comers.

60%-plus were in hospital, and this number is at least 600% higher than the Aprils prior to that, April 2018, 2019.

There was so much death in New York City, it's impossible.

And th- and this dumb argument he makes, it even goes against his other argument, 'cause at other points he's like, "Oh, we had the worst COVID deaths of anywhere in the country," which you mentioned already was Peru, it's not U- the United States, and there was, like, we were 16.

There was lots of other people died before us, and there's lots of other factors that go into that.

This is what I was hoping we would pivot to now

Yeah.

Time is a flat circle, and I have lost sense of what's happening.

It, it-- So I recently went to the World Cup game in Los Angeles with Iran playing New Zealand.

Really fascinating look into the diaspora and how they're interacting and responding to what's happening in Iran now.

'Cause as you know, the diaspora is really wide, really varied, and there's lots of different opinions on it.

And less so now, but in the beginning there was incredibly strong emotions on both sides.

There were some people who were very excited about the prospect of there being war with Iran, Iranians being excited about it, to see the regime fall.

Yeah.

Yeah

So I am familiar with it.

I am happy to...

I'll tell you this, I've been talking a lot with my kids about homosexuality recently because, I don't know if you're familiar with this, it just came up.

We're in San Francisco, and they have friends at school whose parents are, are gay, and it's something that they've grown up with and feel very comfortable with.

But recently in San Francisco, there was Pride Night for the San Francisco Giants, and my family we're all fans of the local teams there.

And it's one night where the players wear, like, the rainbow-colored hat, just has the SF logo, but it has the rainbow logo on it.

Right

We're gonna collapse your economy if you don't do something," and that Trump will go to Netanyahu and say, "Hey, we're gonna, like, have a problem, and I'll actually cut off support or whatever unless you stop."

I, I have a question for you all about this.

Uh, and I know you've talked about this, and there's not maybe an answer just yet for this.

But in, in regards to why Trump did this, there's the thoughts that, you know, he was either trying to cover up the Epstein files, et cetera, or he was duped into it by Netanyahu.

It really feels like there's some of the right-wing media that's pushing against this, is kind of falling in line with that, that latter idea.

I- I- if, if that is true, and I, and I kind of feel like there...

I wanna hear your thoughts on it.

Yes.

Mm.

I am a physician.

I'm a gastroenterologist, and I'm also the host of a podcast called The House of Pod.

It is a humor-adjacent little medical podcast.

We look at wellness grifters, we look at what the MAHA, uh, community and the administration is doing to our current healthcare, and, and, uh, have a little fun when we can with it.

So, uh, you should check it out anywhere you, uh, get your podcasts.

After this, listen to this, this is more important, then afterwards, uh, listen to me.

Wow, beautiful.

Yeah.

So it is, it is, it's something I know a little bit about.

But part, part of the thing is, is, like, when you grow up Iranian and your parents came over after the revolution, a lot of these parents are, uh, very politically savvy, well-read, studied, were politically active.

But getting a lot of information from them was hard about what happened during the revolution, not just because everyone has only their side of it, but because Iranians get so upset about it.

[laughs]

Kava, but first, let's hear your pluggables.

Uh, so my podcast is called The House of Pod.

It is a medical/science podcast.

Mm-hmm

... his medical opinion and his advice on how to manage vaccines.

It's truly bizarre.

Never seen a president say or do those sorts of things.

But one of the things he mentioned was the MMR vaccine, the measles, mumps, rubella, and he said that it should be split into three separate shots.

Again, medically unfounded.

It really, as you, uh, have alluded to, echoes these long debunked claims, uh, these Wakefield-like claims from, starting from back in 1998.

Yeah

Yeah.

...

I don't know if this study totally closes the door.

It is really well done though.

So, they showed that if you look at siblings, if you look at a family, there's no connection.

You take out some of the variables, you take out some of the confounders there that can obfuscate or confuse an issue, you take those out of the picture, and you see that there's no relationship between Tylenol and acetaminophen.

What's interesting is in that same study, that Swedish study, if they then put those back in, if they didn't account for the siblings, then yeah, it showed that there is a little bit of evidence, a small, basically relationship between, you know, acetaminophen and developing autism.

I already have the CDC WONDER data search ready to go because I study mortality all the time, and I am absolutely sure, um, we're gonna see a few more fever-induced deaths than we would have previously.

Yeah.

Both sides liked it.

It was popular amongst patients.

It was popular amongst medical providers.

It was good for Republicans and Democrats alike.

And as you mentioned, it's been kept going through being put in some bill or another since it was initially put in, in...

I think as they called it in 2020, and it's been put in one bill or another to go with the funding.

Yeah.

Can you talk a bit about what's been going on with grants there before we move into, like, how this whole process works?

Yeah.

So the first sign that something was materially going to change after these executive orders, as I recall, um, I'm, uh, I'm living this along with everyone [laughs] else in what is time, but the first thing that I recall is the study section being canceled.

The study sections are meetings where scientists come together.

T- they each will have read various grant proposals and scored them on a number of different dimensions, and then they come together and discuss...

They don't discuss all of them, by the way.

They only discuss the ones that have, that seem to have the most merit, and then out of those they make recommendations for which ones they believe should get funded.

Yeah.