Why did you keep going? What kept you going through all of this? And would you have felt better if you'd actually known the truth about what it was like before heading into it?

Great question.

I think I would have been better equipped to deal with the bad news as it came in.

I think I would have been less blindsided by it if I had... not expected it to work, but just hoped that it would work.

That's a message that I have for patients who are going through it or supporting those who are going through it.

It's that there's a difference between expecting something to work and hoping that it will.

And so I think by virtue of me expecting that it would work the first time, the second time, the third time, the fourth time, the fifth retrieval, the sixth, seventh, eighth embryo transfer, I think I would have been better off kind of having a better sense for what success rates actually look like to protect my heart.

Are there jurisdictions that are getting it right? And what do we need to be doing differently here in Canada?

And so I'm curious, like in your story, how did you, I mean, was it just, it's just the desire to, to have the second child so much, but like how is, was there anything that you were able to sort of do for yourself along the way while you were in this process?

Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting question because, you know, I'm very aware of the fact that I was very fortunate to be going through infertility while having a child.

You know, so on the one hand, it was very difficult because we didn't want to let our daughter know what we were doing.

Like we didn't we weren't bringing her along for the ride.

I mean, obviously, that's a personal decision.

I see all the time, you know, there's lots on social media about, you know, telling the older sibling, like the minute you, you know, pee on a stick.

We learned the hard way without involving her that peeing on a stick for me wasn't really it didn't really mean much.

Yeah.

So can you tell me about your, your journey through surrogacy and these two women?

Right.

And so you'll remember that I talked about all of our failed transfers.

Um, so our first angel, [laughs] Stacy, endured four embryo transfers, and unfortunately none of those took.

We didn't even get a chemical pregnancy.

Um, bless her for trying over and over and over again, um, but we kind of mutually decided that it was time for us to part ways.

For reasons that no one could explain to us, uh, the transfers just weren't working.

Big picture, Kathryn, um, after what you went through navigating this world, what do you think needs to change about Canada's fertility sector?

Yeah.

It's just more seamless communication.

So that's, like, one thing.

But also, I think doctors and nurses, and nurses, bless them, they're, you know, everyone's doing their best.

They're very busy and, um, but you know, one thing is I think hopefully people will read the book, doctors included, and understand really what it's like for their patients.

If-

... have the means or if you can scrounge it together, you will do it regardless of whether or not they're actually proven.

And so, you know, one thing that y- I think people really need to understand is that no province or territory in this country offers fully funded IVF support, or surrogacy support for that matter.

Tell me a little bit about the toll it took on you.

I went into IVF with the total wrong mindset.

I had no idea the physical toll that this was going to take on me.

This is separate from the emotional toll, the financial toll, the toll on relationships.

Physically, it was very difficult.

I am somebody who responded very well to the medications, which is what you want.

I would have 50 follicles growing.

I just would love to hear how it was for you when you found out you were naturally pregnant after three months of your second surrogate's pregnancy.

How much data is actually available on the success rates of each IVF clinic across Canada?

Well, um, when it comes to what a patient would want to know, which is whether clinic A has a higher success rate than clinic B, it's a black box.

You can't know that.

You don't know that.

And that is because, yes, we had the Assisted Human Reproduction Act.

That was passed in 2004.

It was supposed to create this central oversight body with data collection.

Embryo glue.

So can you tell me about your, your journey through surrogacy and these two women?

Right.

And so you'll remember that I talked about all of our failed transfers.

Um, so our first angel, [laughs] Stacy, endured four embryo transfers, and unfortunately none of those took.

We didn't even get a chemical pregnancy.

Um, bless her for trying over and over and over again, um, but we kind of mutually decided that it was time for us to part ways for reasons that no one could explain to us, uh, the transfers just weren't working.

And so we actually found our second surrogate, Kendra, through Facebook.

Big picture, Kathryn, um, after what you went through navigating this world, what do you think needs to change about Canada's fertility sector?