[gentle music] Dr. Julie is a practicing Buddhist, but she was cautious about integrating it into her professional work.

Then someone told me that there was a scientist named Francisco Varela who had these dialogue between Buddhism and scientists.

I'm like, "Really?" And they're like, "Yeah, and they're, and there's gonna be a class coming up on the whole Buddhist science of mind, Buddhist psychology." I'm like, "Ooh, I, I ...

You know, I, I've been staying away from the Buddhist side.

I'm just ...

But that sounds kind of interesting." And I realized how sophisticated it was.

I realized it was more sophisticated in a way than modern neuroscience, their descriptions of attention.

Is, is there a time that, um, Tonglen, that Tonglen was really helpful for you, a story that you could tell?