Um, Julie, if we, if we take feminism out of this and we just talk about a liberal society, is there a world in which Bonnie Blue can be a good sign, or would you contest that argument?

Well, if we take feminism out of this and- We look at a liberal approach then that assumes a level playing field, and that's the problem with liberalism for feminists, in my view.

I don't mean freedom, I mean liberalism.

And I don't think it's helpful to use Bonnie Blue as an example of the upper limits of women's sexual freedom because she is an abhorrence.

And it's also not helpful to look at someone as exceptional as Bonnie Blue and to compare her with what might happen to, for example, a woman being stoned to death in a square in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

I think what we have to do rather than that is look at, uh, the reaction that those of us that really understand the freedom that we're fighting for for women, the freedom from male violence, the threat of male violence, which I would argue is the one thing that unites women all over the world because we don't...

I mean, apart from the fact that we have a biological sex, I mean, that's, that's pretty much it.

But she's, she was the one, and everyone's waking up to this now, who first changed the act, Sex Discrimination Act, to be a problem for women.

Yes.

Well, Nicola Sturgeon, who was once- Um, First Minister in Scotland, who created the same damage and turmoil as Gillard did in, albeit a much smaller country, by introducing de facto self ID.

Um, she's also living in London, so I hope they give each other a bit of comfort when they become persona non grata, uh, amongst polite society because both of those women are destroyers of the rights of women and girls.

I really, really hope I bump into Gillard in some restaurant or a store somewhere because I will very politely tell her exactly what I think of her.

And some of these women giving away our rights that we fought for, and the rights of girls, shame on them.

Gillard, who I think if she had any fewer brain cells on this, you'd have to water her twice a day, going to, in my country, the Women's Prize for Literature and being shouted at and protested by some of my friends and colleagues here in London.

Yes.

Mm

... and leaving a child in that situation.

And she did so not because she thought she was, she was so scared she would sacrifice her child.

It was actually the opposite of that.

She knew that she could never get proper legal advice and support, which she got from women's organizations, who found her a lawyer, to go to the actual family court, which is our s- legal system, to get custody of her child.

Because if she'd stayed, the imam decides through the Sharia system what happens to the woman and her children.

So she sacrificed a huge amount in that she didn't know whether she'd have anywhere to sleep that night.

Hmm

[laughs]

Uh, uh, I mean, I, I can talk about the least bad.

Maybe Wes Streeting's the least bad.

I don't trust any of them.

There used to be a time when we could trust some politicians, and they stood out amongst the crowd of slime balls.

But no, I've been a Labour voter all my life.

If there was a general election tomorrow, I would have to spoil my ballot paper, and I've never felt like that before.

[laughs]

[laughs]

And it was 2009, and I'd been targeted by trans activists since 2004 when I first wrote about it.

And it was back in the day when the trans lobby were just allowed to run amok.

There was very few speaking out against it.

And Olivia Bailey, who we now know, um, as the, whatever her job title is, muppet, um, was the women's officer in the NUS.

And she decided to no-platform me and add my name to six fascist groups that were no-platformed.

And I was the first individual.

[laughs]

How does trans ideology allow men to carry out evil acts?

Well, the problem that we have is that male violence towards women and girls, and of course other men, but I'm concerned with the type that's towards women and girls, is pretty regular.

It's not uncommon.

It's a minority of men, but it's a majority of men that carry the attitude that says it's not so bad.

Maybe she asked for it.

We don't believe her.

So trans ideology... largely defends, excuses trans women who are men.

It's pretty mad that, isn't it? Did you ever see this coming? At what point did you go, oh, they really mean it when

And the parallels between exorcism and early onset gender dysphoria are just remarkable.

That's interesting.

I know what conversion therapy is.

And I know what this religious madness is.

In 2013, I was researching a book on lesbian and gay culture of the day.

It was during the kind of Stonewall was getting more and more powerful and the trans lobby were definitely on the rise as we spoke about earlier.

And I was looking at the rights of lesbians in particular.

I've always imagined they sort of hub deep down and maybe they sort of love this woman, but it's not quite how other people-

Did that happen to you?

Oh, it happened to me and it happened to every single woman that I knew.

And, you know, Leeds United football supporters, because Sutcliffe was murdering women largely in the north of England, in the north-west.

would be chanting 12-0, 12-0 to the police before he killed his final victim because he killed 13 at least before he was captured by accident by some police outside of West Yorkshire because the police were penning them in Ellen Road football ground.

And, you know, there were all of these kind of examples of rank misogyny that got me into feminism and...

That was a huge moment because what was exposed at that time was that the media that were referring to innocent victims, in other words, women that weren't in street prostitution that Sutcliffe had murdered, the police that was talking about, well, he might kill, there might be more pawns.

We were the pawns before we catch him, like it was some sort of cockfight between a serial killer and police officers.

don't

How can this still be happening?

It's utterly ludicrous.

Either we have women's sports or we don't.

Either we recognize that sports are segregated for good reason or we don't and we put everybody in together and then see what happens.

Which is like the bad old days when girls and women wouldn't come forward to compete or they wouldn't join tournaments.

Even if you look at something like poker, which Oliver was joking about.

How can this be an issue? How can poker even be discriminatory? There's no strength involved.

Because so many more are going out to work and everything else, and prioritizing work perhaps over family, that birth rates ultimately are obviously going to reduce, and that ultimately, that could be a very self-defeating thing for the planet?