Take us back to that period and what shaped how you understood work, success, identity, before leadership and owning your own company ever entered the conversation.

Yeah, I've got to say, I've never actually even thought that I would end up owning my own company, just how I never thought I'd end up in a director's role.

I feel kind of from the very start, I've very much followed the steps you're traditionally supposed to follow.

actually supposed to follow but you're meant to follow so you go to school you go to high school go to university you get a job you progress that's the route that I've chosen and kind of I've realized I guess more recently which is really crazy that everything I've done has just been going with the flow for a really long period of time and kind of someone recommended me for a job so I went for it I got the job so that's what I did and I'd never really stopped to think about what do I want? Is this the life I want to lead? And I never even thought about a life outside the nine till five and commuting into work at all.

So all of this came as a bit of a surprise to me that Actually, I could run my own company.

Actually, I could build things how I want to build it.

And that includes a business and actually my life as well.

I can decide which direction I go and I can choose what people I work with and what contracts I take on and all of that.