I guess thinking about the, the origins of Athenian democracy, why was this system even created in the first place?

And so the origins of Athenian democracy go way back.

Um, uh, we can go back to really the emergence of the city-state system, um, uh, uh, which is, uh, happens really as we begin to move out of the so-called Dark Ages, um, uh, that had followed the, um, collapse of the great Bronze Age civilization.

Um, uh, uh, so, uh, these early Greek city-states, we're back now in the eighth century BCE, um, were probably relatively more democratic, um, than most of the communities that we think about through the great civilizations of, say, Egypt or, or Mesopotamia.

But they were relatively small.

They were probably dominated, um, by people who had identified themselves or were accepted as aristocrats, the sort of the leading people.

So the rest of the adult men perhaps had some say, but the aristocrats are pretty much running things.

I guess coming, I guess coming towards the end of our podcast, so today, looking at what lessons we can take from Athenian democracy and maybe modern views on Athenian democracy, could, for example, revising election by lottery lead to more effective democracies or do contemporary political office require such specialized know- knowledge that we need, quote-unquote, experts?

He practices it, but his theory never fully justifies it.

Basically, you have to ask yourself, do you think that across the whole of Plato's set of dialogues that the real living Socrates had those opinions, that was his philosophy? It seems to me that's unlikely, that Plato was, I believe, a very original thinker, and he's not simply transcribing Socrates.

Socrates of the Crito, generally thought to be one of the earliest of the dialogues, that Socrates is completely consistent in the arguments he's giving, although critical of Athens.

He's not being uncritical.

But I think that Socrates is completely compatible with the life of Socrates as a warrior, as someone who spent a full year on the Athenian council and had to have volunteered to get that.

He didn't get drafted onto the council.

So he spends a year hanging out and doing the business of the city, with 499 of his fellow citizens, chose to enter the lottery to become a councilman.

Please tell me a bit about it.

He practices it, but his theory never fully justifies it.

Basically, you have to ask yourself, do you think that across the whole of Plato's set of dialogues that the real living Socrates had those opinions, that was his philosophy? It seems to me that's unlikely, that Plato was, I believe, a very original thinker, and he's not simply transcribing Socrates.

Socrates of the Crito, generally thought to be one of the earliest of the dialogues, that Socrates is completely consistent in the arguments he's giving, although critical of Athens.

He's not being uncritical.

But I think that Socrates is completely compatible with the life of Socrates as a warrior, as someone who spent a full year on the Athenian council and had to have volunteered to get that.

He didn't get drafted onto the council.

So he spends a year hanging out and doing the business of the city, with 499 of his fellow citizens, chose to enter the lottery to become a councilman.

Please tell me a bit about it.

He practices it, but his theory never fully justifies it.

Basically, you have to ask yourself, do you think that across the whole of Plato's set of dialogues that the real living Socrates had those opinions, that was his philosophy? It seems to me that's unlikely, that Plato was, I believe, a very original thinker, and he's not simply transcribing Socrates.

Socrates of the Crito, generally thought to be one of the earliest of the dialogues, that Socrates is completely consistent in the arguments he's giving, although critical of Athens.

He's not being uncritical.

But I think that Socrates is completely compatible with the life of Socrates as a warrior, as someone who spent a full year on the Athenian council and had to have volunteered to get that.

He didn't get drafted onto the council.

So he spends a year hanging out and doing the business of the city, with 499 of his fellow citizens, chose to enter the lottery to become a councilman.

Please tell me a bit about it.

Their nostalgia actually is innovating and building something new.

Yeah.

The Homeric poems are fascinating because they look back to this glorious age of hundreds of years past, right? The Homeric poems get written down sometime in the eighth century BCE.

The Bronze Age civilization collapses in the 12th century BCE, and there's hundreds of years in between, and yet there is a memory of this glorious age of the past that's being preserved.

And yet the world that Homer describes... describes is not the world of the Bronze Age palaces.

He's describing this whole, a made-up world, a, a mythic world.

Of course, there are gods floating around, horses talk.

Please tell me a bit about it.

He practices it, but his theory never fully justifies it.

Basically, you have to ask yourself, do you think that across the whole of Plato's set of dialogues that the real living Socrates had those opinions, that was his philosophy? It seems to me that's unlikely, that Plato was, I believe, a very original thinker, and he's not simply transcribing Socrates.

Socrates of the Crito, generally thought to be one of the earliest of the dialogues, that Socrates is completely consistent in the arguments he's giving, although critical of Athens.

He's not being uncritical.

But I think that Socrates is completely compatible with the life of Socrates as a warrior, as someone who spent a full year on the Athenian council and had to have volunteered to get that.

He didn't get drafted onto the council.

So he spends a year hanging out and doing the business of the city, with 499 of his fellow citizens, chose to enter the lottery to become a councilman.

Please tell me a bit about it.

Their nostalgia actually is innovating and building something new.

Yeah.

The Homeric poems are fascinating because they look back to this glorious age of hundreds of years past, right? The Homeric poems get written down sometime in the eighth century BCE.

The Bronze Age civilization collapses in the 12th century BCE, and there's hundreds of years in between, and yet there is a memory of this glorious age of the past that's being preserved.

And yet the world that Homer describes ... describes is not the world of the Bronze Age palaces.

He's describing this whole, a made-up world, a, a mythic world.

Of course, there are gods floating around.

Please tell me a bit about it.

He practices it, but his theory never fully justifies it.

Basically, you have to ask yourself, do you think that across the whole of Plato's set of dialogues that the real living Socrates had those opinions, that was his philosophy? It seems to me that's unlikely, that Plato was, I believe, a very original thinker, and he's not simply transcribing Socrates.

Socrates of the Crito, generally thought to be one of the earliest of the dialogues, that Socrates is completely consistent in the arguments he's giving, although critical of Athens.

He's not being uncritical.

But I think that Socrates is completely compatible with the life of Socrates as a warrior, as someone who spent a full year on the Athenian council and had to have volunteered to get that.

He didn't get drafted onto the council.

So he spends a year hanging out and doing the business of the city, with 499 of his fellow citizens, chose to enter the lottery to become a councilman.

Please tell me a bit about it.