What would you consider like a Christ-centered version of freedom? And Jonathan Tremaine, how is it different from the way, I will say, some Americans tend to talk about freedom?

Yeah, I would say freedom, first of all, from Christ's perspective, it's not... a freedom that's centered in human.

This is what it's like, but the freedom that Christ brings is not necessarily centered just in human rights because a human rights centered freedom is actually humanism.

It puts us at the center of all things.

The ultimate purpose of life is the satisfaction of human liberty, right? Human expression, all these different things.

I think freedom from God's perspective starts with us being free from, first of all, the true enemy, the bondage of sin, the fall of man.

Paul said it in Romans.

But what do you think people misunderstand about Jesus, especially when it comes to this dividing nature?

But deconstructing from my political party allows me to actually criticize them without looking like i'm i'm flexing you know or trying or trying overly hard to be bipartisan um and and it seems like in your book your book is all about like if i were to sum up kind of your book it's like look for the nuance right right most of what it is that you're talking about is like look there's nuance there's good and bad and and there's a yin and yang and and i want to talk about um martin luther king and kind of like how how you model um you know sort of like your protest your approach to um i don't know like bringing god into public spaces that that that need it like like can you talk to us about about like how how you you know how you feel about martin luther king and then and then like how do you reconcile the fact that he is a very big inspirational figure but he does have a history um that a lot of people a lot of people don't talk about

Yeah, I think in the pantheon of the eras of human history, there has never been one where God doesn't raise up clear, either prophetic individuals or prophetic companies.

And would I say Dr. King... was a prophet from the cloth of, say, in Elijah or in Isaiah or something? No.

But a Jeremiah weeping for the nation, calling the nation to change its ways systemically or structurally? Yes.

And the interesting thing about Jeremiah His work was his public demonstrations were direct and direct nonviolent action was really like a spiritual practice.

These were not organized as just the boycotts and protests and sit-ins and marches.

They weren't just organized as like good ideas.

And in it, he talks about racial reconciliation and says something to the extent I'm paraphrasing that like racial reconciliation is, is essentially like an answerable prayer that all of us have the ability to to take part in because it's like you could see it you know it exists you know that racism and there's just a lot of sort of you know things in the uh american history books you know that that doesn't necessarily look all that favorable to christians um so so help us understand like how like like how can we get to a point where racial reconciliation is like a serious conversation that we have in this country and