So how do you describe that?

I like to use the phrase missing half the pie to make this point.

The mortgage industry is really good at the first half of homeownership, helping people buy, move, refinance, build equity.

But then that homeowner may spend 20, 30, 40 years in that home building the equity.

And the relationship often fades when their financial priorities begin to change.

So the second half of the pie is about helping homeowners evaluate what they've built.

And that conversation could lead to a HELOC, a traditional second mortgage, cash out refinance, possibly a reverse mortgage, or maybe not getting a loan at all.

So let's move from strategy to execution, right? So for a lender that wants to serve older homeowners and their equity needs more effectively, what should happen in the next 90 days? And Jonathan, I'm going to go to you first.

If you see that, you know, this is the trend toward what borrowers really want, where does that process break down?

The breakdown happens between what the borrower wants to do with their equity and the products that have traditionally been available to them.

Today's borrower may wanna stay in their home, fund renovations, consolidate debt, or simply create more financial flexibility.

But when they start exploring these options, a lot of today's choices don't actually align with their goals, right? A cash out refinance is hard to justify when you're sitting on such a low fixed rate first mortgage that you don't wanna lose.

A HELOC may not be accessible because of DTI, because of income qualifications, and payment concerns as well.

Uh, so you end up with borrowers who have significant equity, very clear financial objections, but no solution that feels practical or efficient for their situation.

And that's where the disconnect is.

When you think about how these originators are approaching this, how these lenders are, what does it look like in practice? What does this really, like, what's that mind shift?