And was there a point that you suddenly thought, this is it, this is the direction, this is what I could do this for a living? Is there a point that you remember...

It's a real great question, Bob, because there were actually two points on that journey.

And one was that I wanted to give myself a chance to do it because I was working at the time for the employment service.

I was a civil servant working in a job center, helping people to get work.

But I was doing a pirate radio show and I do like the odd gig, but I was still very much a nine to fiver.

Right.

And there was a little bit of change in legislation that came in where people had to be actively seeking work.

Putting the graft in, right? Really putting the graft in.