So when you look back at that modest setup, what was the defining moment or the biggest risk where the story could have gone a completely different direction?

When I look back, I kind of laugh because what is not in the statement you said earlier is that there were actually two trash dumpsters on the left and right of our office door in the back alley behind Dollar General in Buford.

And so at times the trash truck would come and dump the trash and then leak.

leak trash juice in front of our door.

And so I laugh because at that point we thought we had a legitimate business or actually started a business there.

But I realized that in that scenario, it could have gone totally opposite as far as what's going on because the way that we welcome somebody And so we were in the basement in the back alley and what I consider very unknown variable.

But by the grace of God, we were able to meet some individuals and do what I consider really good product quality items around.

Why was it so vital to you to build an economic and educational engine for the arts sector here?

So when you look back at that modest setup, what was the defining moment or the biggest risk where the story could have gone a completely different direction?

When I look back, I kind of laugh because what is not in the statement you said earlier is that there were actually two trash dumpsters on the left and right of our office door in the back alley behind Dollar General in Buford.

And so at times the trash truck would come and dump the trash and then leak.

leak trash juice in front of our door.

And so I laugh because at that point we thought we had a legitimate business or actually started a business there.

But I realized that in that scenario, it could have gone totally opposite as far as what's going on because the way that we welcome somebody And so we were in the basement in the back alley and what I consider very unknown variable.

But by the grace of God, we were able to meet some individuals and do what I consider really good product quality items around.

Why was it so vital to you to build an economic and educational engine for the arts sector here?

It is just a wonderful place to be able to minister to someone.

I agree, and I think that, you know, when we think about our priorities when it comes into counseling, Mike, like you said, our first instinct and our goal is not to deconstruct and to, you know, offer an entire, you know, systematic theology course, you know, in the first session.

When you look at 1 Thessalonians 5.14, right, Paul says, "...admonish the unruly, encourage the faint-hearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all." Two-thirds of the three groups of people that Paul is talking to us about there require sensitivity and grace and compassion as we enter into conversation.

So we don't come in both guns blazing.

We come in with curiosity and understanding.

And I think most people, or at least the counselees I've been privileged to meet with, they feel the reductionism already that secular voices offer to them.

I'm thinking of one guy in particular who just a 20 to 25-year history with pornography and various sexual sin.

And I think that's important to keep in mind under that umbrella of like, we don't have to be fearful about encountering other worldviews or ways of thinking or people who have been particularly either influenced or carrying a particular diagnosis even.

It's probably the most profound reason I pinch myself every day and say, why do I have an opportunity to do this, even as a job, as my vocation?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I share similar background to you.

I was a pastor for quite a long time, but probably best feel suited as a counselor.

And even in the pulpit, you know, when I'd be sharing, you know, maybe the best compliment somebody would give me is, hey, that felt like I was in a counseling session with you.

It felt like we were just, we were talking and that give and take is what I love so much about counseling.

What a great kingdom, isn't it? Oh yeah.

Yes

... that don't ever, you know, reach a certain level of potential, I guess.

Um, I think at the end of the day, it's like putting the, the, the puzzle together.

You gotta get all the pieces and, and, you know, figure out, can this guy complement this guy? Do we have enough shooting? Do we have enough size? Do we have-- Are we versatile enough? Especially, you know, stylistically, you know, how we play.

I mean, if you, if you've watched Akron before, I mean, I think they were seventh in the country last year in scoring.

So play really fast, shoot a lot of threes.

Very, very similar to, to what we did at Miami.

Right

But my goodness, four different sco- uh, five different scorers in double digits, and that's so difficult, and any of those guys can beat you on any given night.

Yeah, we, we had incredible, uh, depth and balance.

Um, like you said, a lot of different guys that, uh, would, would step up on a, on a given night, you know, whether it was, you know, Peter, who, you know, he may...

You know, hi- his impact on winning, um, you know, uh, what...

He kind of did whatever the game required.

So some nights he may have to get 35, and then other nights it was, you know, he would get 10 and have, you know, eight rebounds, seven assists and, and whatever the game required.

But, uh, we had a lot of different guys step up and, and, and kind of, you know, going back to your, your, your previous question about a single moment, you know, we, we lost our starting point guard, um, in December, and at the time he was, he, he was playing as well as any guard in America.

Oh.

And so you just get to come along for the ride as that faithful co-traveler.

I think like both Darby and Lauren are highlighting this sense of dependence and the excitement that comes when we can get out of the way and allow the Lord to use what we do bring to the table for His glory and for their good.

I also think about, you know, our friend and colleague Ed talks often about just, hey, can you ask two questions? Can you ask how are you doing and how can I pray for you? And so those two questions, right, in many ways are really the seedbed of a lot of our counseling ministry.

So when you feel like, man, I don't have a script or I don't know what to do, can you ask those two questions or at least versions of those, right? If you feel stuck, what might it look like to say, hey, do you Is there something on your heart that is hard for you or that's troubling you that we could pray about? Let's do that.

Let's go to our great high priest, our advocate.

So sometimes we tend to overcomplicate the simple, and we don't want to be simplistic.

But sometimes there is a simplicity in simply being able to say, hey, how can I pray for you? Or like Darby said earlier, I don't know.

How is that going? That's the kind of vision that comes to mind and what I aspire to as a result of this distinctive within my local church.

And there are still things that are just seem like massive layers of new insight that the Lord keeps teaching me, even though I could have said the main categories He was graciously showing me early on, and it's such a revelation continually about how active my heart really is.

Yeah, I mean, I can think of-- Man, I, I can think of, uh, especially my own heart being revealed in just, you know, relationships with friends and with Jen and the kids.

And I, I think that, I don't know, probably just even within the past five to ten years, especially realizing that a lot of these external struggles that I have, weaknesses, uh, just sin patterns that just hang on, whether it's my impatience, my irritability, my, uh, anger, how that can seep out is actually tied to something that's going on in my heart.

And, you know, you can try different, you know, anger management strategies, count to ten or, you know, go scream in a pillow or something of that sort.

But you, you realize all of that can bypass the heart, and, you know, the heart work that has been needed on my end is, you know, like you were saying, Gunnar, like just going face to face with the Lord and looking at some of those behaviors and drawing a little bit of a dotted line back to, hey, what's going on underneath the surface? Well, you know, I like control, and when things are out of control, like I, I get frustrated, or when things don't go my way, or when I think I have a good idea and it's rejected, you know, how do I respond to that? And, you know, those are all questions of the heart.

I think that's where a lot of the writings and teaching from people like Paul Tripp and Ed Welch and Pallesen and Tim Keller and others have been so helpful to me, along with Scripture, to help me see my heart better, to help me understand, oh, there's, there's something bubbling up underneath the surface, uh, under these behaviors that you need to understand, that you need to bring before the Lord.

And so this, um, this distinctive of ours of the heart is active is, I mean, this is real life in so many ways for us, for sure.

H- how does a biblical understanding of the heart, uh, you know, foster spiritual health and growth in a local church? How does a biblical grasp of the heart, as that continues to mature in a church community, affect the way those relationships take place and affect the very health o- of that body?

So tell me more about the central concern that you wanted to put before the inquiry.

Um, our central concern, um, let me make it clear, the ABC Alumni is a group of, of former ABC people.

It doesn't have any direct connection with the ABC, and we don't speak for the ABC.

It's important to understand that.

Um, and we didn't consult the ABC in making our submission to the Royal Commission.

Um, but we read Jillian Segal's original report back in July 2025, long before the Bondi massacre, um, about combating antisemitism, and we were alarmed that in several places in that report, she singles out the public broadcasters, ABC and SBS, as being part of the problem, because she says that in the way that it reports, it exacerbates antisemitism by emphasizing stories that are unfavorable and cast Israel in a bad light, and by a process of what she calls conflation, bad news about Israel taken by ordinary people in Australia as a kind of excuse or reason to attack Australian Jews.

She was proposing in that, uh, report that she, the special envoy, should have a special role in, uh, helping the broadcasters to amend their editorial guidelines and to, uh, cover the Middle East conflicts, particularly in a way that would be more favorable to Israel.

Looking ahead, I mean, what kind of recommendation from this Royal Commission would worry you? And conversely, I mean, what do you think might actually be useful here?

and then have, again, a more full-orbed picture of the person as I got my training in biblical counseling.

Yeah, I think one of the ways Mike and Gunnar, it's played out for me in counseling ministry is it's just really slowed me down.

You know, I contend towards efficiency and wanting to get done as much as I can in a 50- to 60-minute session.

And when you're dealing with real people who come from a comprehensive array of influences, soul work is slow work, right? I mean, it's laboring.

I can think about times where there were probably moments I didn't pick up on just... just the way anxiety can inhibit people in a counseling session, right? I mean, they're either freezing, they want to get out of there, they don't know what to do.

And, you know, what I took as maybe just a discomfort, you know, is just physical presentations of anxiety happening right there, that nervousness breaking through in the session.

I think there were probably times early on in counseling where what might have been read as disobedience of like, why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you following through on this was really weakness, inability, or even disability.

Curiosity, taking the time to ask some questions, being quick to listen and slow to speak, James 1.19, I think, such an important characteristic for our church bodies.

But can we unpack this a little bit? What stands out to, to both of you as you kind of rehear this distinctive and this description?

Yeah, I think one of the things that comes to mind when I hear that, and Gunnar, I agree, there's a, a warmth and a personableness that matches the distinctive itself.

And I can't remember where I originally heard it.

I think maybe it was a Tim Keller, uh, sermon that I was listening to.

But, you know, Keller was kind of, you know, just trying to show, do a little compare and contrast, uh, between Christianity and really all the other major world religions, uh, Greek and Roman mythology.

And, uh, in, in all of those settings, to some degree, you have gods or, you know, a god singular, but a god who remains very distant, uh, from the interest of things that are going on in the world, a, a god or gods who are, uh, manipulating, controlling, but who have very little interest in, you know, these little peons, as it were, that they've created.

And, uh, one of the things that, you know, scripture draws our attention to from the very beginning is God, our God is not like that.

That's the, the Psalms guide us, and if we can speak openly to the Lord about those things, we can speak openly to each other.