Is there an M factor here?

I think definitely, um, the M factor is a, is a very suitable way to, to frame, uh, what we're experiencing as a nation and what, what we will apparently continue to experience.

You know, there's an old saying in English that a fish rots from the head down.

And a country takes, I think many people will agree that a country takes its standards from the people at the top.

And when the people at the top are implicated in lying, stealing, cheating, murder, and for covering for each other and protecting each other, the nation takes its lesson from that standard.

The constable in the police station learns that lesson.

The youth on the street corner with an unlicensed firearm learns that lesson.

Were you shocked at his arrest for rape, uh, sexual grooming of a minor, and human trafficking?

Welcome, Jonathan.

Thank you, Chris.

I think definitely, um, the M factor is a, is a very suitable way to, to frame, uh, what we're experiencing as a nation and what, what we will apparently continue to experience.

You know, there's an old saying in English that a fish rots from the head down.

And [clears throat] a country takes...

I think many people will agree that a country takes its standards from the people at the top.

And when the people at the top are implicated in lying, stealing, cheating, murder, and for covering for each other and protecting each other, the nation takes its lesson from that standard.

Jonathan, the mass shootings.

I don't know about you, but I have felt the power shifting away from the cartels, especially with the testimony of last week.

Yeah.

There has been so much that has emerged.

Um, literally, I think unless one was sitting, uh, as, um, in the gallery at the, at the Commission, very difficult to keep track of everything.

Um, and of course, the tables have been turned, uh, so dramatically, um, where, where IDAK was on a very strong charge at the beginning, uh, on the back of Fadiel Adams's, uh, allegations.

Um, that man himself, um, has been exposed as being, let's call it rather economical with the truth.

Um, Andrea Johnson, I think, is, uh, running for cover, and the very people who were vilified publicly at the beginning of all of this, um, appear to be the ones that are walking away from it, um, with, uh, with almost with an apology from the state, if that's going to happen.

The National Prosecuting Authority has now formally dropped corruption charges against Divisional Commissioner for Crime Intelligence, Lieutenant General Dumisani Kumalo, and six other high-ranking police officers.

Jonathan, what else stood out for you, uh, over the past week of evidence?

I think that, um, this week at Majliga, the, the backstory, the important backstory for South Africans, um, apart from all of this intrigue, and Chris, you and I have just literally skimmed the surface this afternoon, um, is that it's stopped being about who did what to whom, but it's actually become a stress test of whether Majliga can actually survive its own scrutiny.

And, um, that's on the basis of the NPA unconditionally withdrawing the charges.

Um, and if you layer all... into all of that Fadiel Adams's testimony, the man, um, who set this whole inquiry running and spent three days being told by the commission's own, uh, lawyers that his story, uh, doesn't add up.

Um, the political killings task team, um, evidence that has been led, and some of the allegations that were made by Adams, um, in that regard.

We have, uh, Kat Mashala keeping his mouth shut behind privilege in other criminal matters.

Um, Feroz, Feroz Khan is, uh, certainly has now a firm date to answer for his ties to Julius Malema, even though Malema himself still hasn't been summonsed.

As the founder of Safe Citizen, when you hear all this, h- how do you think us ordinary citizens, uh, ended up with a police force like this, as rotten as this?

Let's look at the alleged layer then of political interference.

So with Johnson particularly, um, her credibility is at stake because of a number of allegations.

The first one is, um, at the ad hoc committee, she said that she'd only authorized the Masemola Medicare 24 tender after receiving, uh, Fadil Adams' Section 27 affidavit, which she claimed arrived mid-December 2024.

But commission evidence shows she'd already authorized the investigation on the 6th of December.

So strike one.

Um, Commissioner Beloe himself actually called the sequence improbable.

[clears throat] Secondly, her separate contradiction at the ad hoc committee, she denied knowing Adams had referred the matter via the police minister's office.

Let's also talk about the KZ in hit squad phase.

The full interview is on biznews.com.

I think that the public has become tired of commission after commission after commission with no results.

I think the Zondo Commission was a billion rand in costs for South Africa, literally a room full of dockets ready to prosecute, and nobody held accountable.

And this time, uh, it seems to have teeth.

You know, one can, one can almost hear the cellphone lines buzzing between all of the people that are scurrying for cover, um, after their corrupt activity.

And, um, it must be an enormous worry for those in very high positions that know a lot, um, in terms of their safety, um, because we've seen what happens, uh, at high level and amongst the corrupt few.

In fact, I love that English saying, you know, that, um, there's no honor amongst thieves, and when thieves fall out, uh, they turn on each other.

Well, the arrests are taking place, but how would you like to see it going forward now, apart from pr- proper prosecutions and proper accountability?

He says the questioning has been sharp, and this time, consequences are already being felt.

I've been thoroughly impressed, um, with the questioning from the Majanga Commission.

It's like watching, um, if one goes to civil court, it's like watching the top advocates in the country, uh, busy with their craft.

Uh, I've been really impressed with the way that the questions are asked, that the testimony is examined, that it is cross-examined, and the questions are asked in a way that actually leads, um, deceitful people into their own traps.

It's really interesting to watch.

People commit suicide.

Absolutely.

And, um, I think that the public has become tired of commission after commission after commission with no results.

Not a good recipe.

Absolutely not.

And, um, interestingly on that note, because of the work that I do with Safe Citizen, it's almost a fairly positive turnaround with some of the statistics that have been emerging from the state itself, which really shoots their whole initiative of disarming private citizens in the foot.

Um, they are, I think they re- they are reeling.

Uh, in November last year, they were very, very bullish about the proposed amendments to the Firearms Control Act, and, um, it was almost a fait accompli that it was going to be presented to, to Parliament, and I think that the, the ruling party expected it to be rubber-stamped and to become a, a thing of beauty and a thing of reality by this time this year.

Well, of course, um, that's not the case.

And in my experience, and if I look at the profile of members that are joining Safe Citizen, many of them ordinary members of the public who are not necessarily firearm owners, people are becoming more and more concerned about personal safety and public safety, and there is much less, um, of a resistance, even in the minds of unarmed people, to the fact that lawfully armed citizens are actually something very useful and an asset to the country.

Jonathan, as the founder of Safe Citizen, how unsafe have we as South Africans become?

The full interview is on biznews.com.

Well, most definitely it would hamper and almost completely impede the ability of people who would decide at some point in time that they would like to become lawfully armed to actually acquire a licensed firearm.

The millions of firearm owners who are currently licensed and who rely on the comfort and protection of their licensed firearm to defend themselves and their family would be affected because they would be hampered in the renewal of their self-defense firearms.

The act, the...

Amendment Bill at this point in time is looking to almost completely strip us of the opportunity to own firearms for self-defense.

And constitutionally, we are actually permitted and guaranteed the right to effective self-defense, to freedom from all forms of violence.

And that is essentially the worst thing that would happen from a self-defense point of view.

May we start by you informing them properly on what they should really know about the Firearms Control Amendment Bill?

Chris, thank you for that.

I think we can definitely agree that people are often hearing the words public safety, but not necessarily making the connection or understanding where the foundation of public safety lies.

And they can consistently hear calls for more restrictions, apparently and according to our government to make them safer.

but actually not enough about how those restrictions may affect their constitutional right to lawful self-defense and effective private security.

Now, the debate in South Africa can be polarized and it sometimes does become polarized around owning a firearm or not owning a firearm.

And this is not what it's about.

And what should the public know about proposed changes to firearm training?