It's been a weird journey.

So right out of seminary, I got the job at the church and did a few different roles there over four and a half years.

And then once that came to an end, graphic design, web design, all of those things were kind of what I've always done.

And so I just, I'm like, let's go see if I can do this on my own.

And the actual story is about a year before I left the church, I remember walking the dog and we're walking the neighborhood.

I had this thought of like, what would it look like to serve the global church instead of just the, just this one that I'm working at now.

And so for the first 10 years or so of the business, about 50% of my business was with churches and ministry focused nonprofits.

So what's your strategy to connect when there's just so much competition and noise and marketing dollars that, you know, you have to decide what to use and not like there's a lot to contend with?