You have better teachers, better outcomes, better opportunities, better lives for the kids that go there, right?

Yeah, we see around the country in states that have private school scholarships for students.

These students show positive test score gains.

In fact, we have the first study was just released a couple of months ago out of Arkansas of students using specifically education savings accounts.

and found positive outcomes for kids using these ESAs.

Now that's a big deal because there are 18 states around the country that have what are known as universal ESA programs, which means every child within the state's borders can apply for an account.

So this is big news for positive outcomes for students using these accounts.

It's pretty telling, isn't it?

What is it designed to do? And maybe a little bit about the methodology.

The PISA test is given by an international organization called the OECD, which does research around the world on economic issues, social issues, and then, of course, education as well.

It represents 91 countries in this particular PISA test, and it looks at 15-year-olds and their scores in math, science, and reading.

And the results this year, the top line is that scores are going down really around the world.

including in the United States.

What was interesting, I think, for those in the U.S. is that the declines in the U.S. were not quite as steep as the declines on average other countries in the OECD.

It's a bad picture all around, but we should be keeping a close eye on what is causing the downfall, not just in the U.S., but around the world.

So you are suggesting that perhaps we lowered our standards and then students and maybe even teachers taught to and learned according to the lower expectations?

So I invite you to speak to the necessity of a proper education in civics as going hand in hand with a proper induction into the success sequence for students.

Yeah, that's another great point, and it's another question that I asked in my survey.

I asked families, do you want the civics taught more in school? And 57% of my respondents said yes, they do want civics taught more.

Now, it's interesting because this issue is actually a bipartisan one.

There are those on the left and the right that believe that civics should be taught more.

The issue is that there's a different version of civics, depending on which side of the ideological divide, you happen to be sitting.

Those on the left, I think, can trace some of their ideas back at least as far as the Obama administration, where they pushed for what is known as action civics, the idea that we should kind of skip over the names and dates and go straight to the ideas and train students to be activists, right? Train them to be protesting, whether it's, you know, supposed climate change, whether it's plastic bags, at grocery stores, whether it's some idea of gentrification, you know, teach them to go and be lobbyists, right? Instead of actually giving them the knowledge and foundations to understand where these ideas come from, to understand that policy is really a matter of trade-offs, right? I mean, there are certainly policies that are better than others, but even so, in a nation as diverse as the United States, there are a lot of trade-offs that have to be made, And we have to be able to prioritize what is best for the individual, the family, the community as we design public policy.

So share with us about the beauty and truth of that, but also why it's necessary to induct children into that context of a civics understanding of the United States.

I mean, what are we producing for all of this money, the federal dollars that go in, the students that have these enormous loans, the cost of tuition going up? What's the actual product that we're getting? Can you speak to that?

Well, sure.

And you can tell from surveys of Americans that the confidence in higher education has gone down precipitously, especially over the last 10 to 15 years.

I think while it is true that if you have a college degree, you are more likely to earn more over your lifetime than those without, this perspective that you have to go to college to have a career that will be fulfilling, that is changing.

I think what we are seeing are many degree programs that don't prepare students to enter the workforce.

I've said several times as we've promoted the book that anytime you have a degree program that has the word "studies" that follows it, that should make you nervous, right? Gender studies, decolonial studies, Marxist studies, those, uh, kinds of degrees which are out there.

Um, they should give everyone pause and ask whether this is gonna help a student be a good neighbor, a good colleague, a productive, uh, employee, right? Is this the kind of adult that we want colleges to produce? Um, and again, I, I come back to what Christopher Rufo, uh, wrote in the book, and he talks about how there are these programs that are simply not, uh, giving us the culture that we want, right? I mean, universities are central to, um, the way that, uh, those that conduct media, uh, those that perform the kind of research that drives our economy forward, right? All of these individuals are a part of the higher education landscape, and if what they are doing is so, um, steeped in a progressive ideology, we are not, uh, cr- uh, fostering a healthy society where people understand, uh, the pursuit of truth is really what education should be about.

Do you agree with that, or are we really just like fighting a lost cause here? I would imagine you're gonna say no because you've written, you're a part of a book that says, "Here's how we fix it."

What would be your message for folks in that category?

Well, I think, uh, to be, uh, circumspect in your shopping.

I think as you look for colleges today, uh, I think you should look to see, do they have a bias response team? Uh, do they have a free speech zone which limits free speech to a small area of campus? Uh, do, do they have some sort of gender studies department? Um, all of these are things that, uh, universities should either be disbanding altogether, uh, or reducing, I think, the amount of investment that goes into, say, some of these area studies, uh, offices because when students graduate with these degrees, uh, they don't have an automatic field that they can go into, and so they're finishing with pretty high level of debt, and they have a degree that's, uh, not going to help them be successful, uh, in life.

Um, I would add as well from the level of, uh, administration, I think the work that's been done by this Trump administration to pay attention to higher education accreditation is actually very important.

It sounds like a very specific topic, but it's actually pretty, uh, essential.

For the layman, what happens with accreditation is that there are a couple of accrediting bodies that essentially put a stamp of approval on a university, and if they have that stamp of approval, they can award, uh, federal college loans to students, okay? So these accreditors have significant control.

If they decide that they don't want to accredit a college or university because they're not doing something that the accreditor wants, that could mean the loss of millions, perhaps more, in, uh, funds that that university uses.

With all of this in mind, Jonathan Butcher, are you optimistic for the future of education in America?

What would be your message for folks in that category?

Well, I think, uh, to be, uh, circumspect in your shopping.

I think as you look for colleges today, uh, I think you should look to see, do they have a bias response team? Uh, do they have a free speech zone which limits free speech to a small area of campus? Uh, do, do they have some sort of gender studies department? Um, all of these are things that, uh, universities should either be disbanding altogether, uh, or reducing, I think, the amount of investment that goes into, say, some of these area studies, uh, offices because when students graduate with these degrees, uh, they don't have an automatic field that they can go into, and so they're finishing with pretty high level of debt, and they have a degree that's, uh, not going to help them be successful, uh, in life.

Um, I would add as well from the level of, uh, administration, I think the work that's been done by this Trump administration to pay attention to higher education accreditation is actually very important.

It sounds like a very specific topic, but it's actually pretty, uh, essential.

For the layman, what happens with accreditation is that there are a couple of accrediting bodies that essentially put a stamp of approval on a university, and if they have that stamp of approval, they can award, uh, federal college loans to students, okay? So these accreditors have significant control.

If they decide that they don't want to accredit a college or university because they're not doing something that the accreditor wants, that could mean the loss of millions, perhaps more, in, uh, funds that that university uses.

With all of this in mind, Jonathan Butcher, are you optimistic for the future of education in America?

That's about as simple as I can put it, Jonathan.

Well, that's right.

And there was just a court case that was settled last year, credit to the group Defending Education, who defended children and the rights of parents to try to have the needs met of their children who were gifted and talented, according to early assessments that are given to young children.

Look, many parents and educators are familiar with what is known as the COGAT.

It's a test that screens for gifted and talented traits.

in young people.

And these are the kinds of students that we should help promote.

I think his goal is more nefarious than that, but if you take him at his word on that, Don't you polarize more by doing away with this? Aren't the kids in that class that are now not going to be in a talented and gifted program and their families going to be more upset with others that they may blame for this? And it just has the opposite effect of what he's trying to do.

So with the good, you could also have some downside, true or false?

I mean, I think it's incredibly rare.

I think what is more commonly found are charter schools that are founded by either parents or community leaders who are legitimately interested in either increasing the expectations for students in their area or private schools that are looking to meet the needs and the interests of parents in their area.

We find a lot of micro schools being created today, especially coming out of the pandemic.

And as they sound, these are smaller private schools that use a curriculum provided by a central office that is a private school provider.

And these are responding to the interests of parents.

And in surveys that I have run myself, I have seen that parents want civics taught more in schools.

I mean in this country in general.

Explain for our audience and how does that tie in to the actions of teachers unions across the country?

especially over the last decade, there's been a lot of attention to how school discipline is handled in classrooms, whether or not students should be suspended or expelled.

Those on the radical left have made the argument that there is a school to prison pipeline.

When you suspend or expel students, that you are setting them up to wind up in jail or in prison.

And what that has done is it's allowed schools to adopt policies that keep dangerous, if not just disruptive students, in classrooms, which makes it more difficult for their peers to do well in school.

It also allows violent students who frankly need some sort of discipline and oversight to remain in classrooms, and it becomes a threat to their peers.

Restorative justice is this idea that instead of Disciplining students, you have a, they call it a restorative circle in some cases where you go face to face with the person who you have wronged or who you have accused and you somehow talk it out, have a meeting of the minds and you resolve the situation and then end.

So what's controversial about it?

So are our leaders acting on that agreement?

Well, and that's a great question.

I think that more could be done to create good public policy based on this widespread agreement that we have on some of these key questions.

So for example, in my survey for the book, I asked if we should teach young people at age appropriate levels to finish high school, enter college or get a job, enter the workforce, and then get married before you have children.

We should be telling young people these things.

And it turns out that among millennials who practiced each of these items, it's called the success sequence, that they were far less likely to wind up in poverty in their 20s and into their 30s.

In fact, many of them were at middle class or above.

But isn't it that the activists, the donors, the influencers, they have more sway than the average American who might have agreement with his or her fellow American? but the powerful or sort of influencing policies that are divisive and radical that really hurt the American people in the long run?

Mm-hmm.

... where there, you know, remains to be some pretty clear opposition to, um, uh, what I would consider sound education policy about focusing on the core subjects of math and reading.

And, uh, as this focus group asked many of the parents, giving parents a say in, uh, what is taught to, uh, to their students.

And this isn't a, a technical question.

I mean, this is a question of whether or not, uh, the community's values are actually being reflected in what is taught in these different school districts.

And I think in many cases, parents feel like they're being left out and they're being replaced by, uh, a pretty left-leaning, um, radical, I would even, uh, argue, ideology in some of these districts.

Mm-hmm.

... and, uh, honest about reflecting what, uh, what parents' values are.

Jonathan, your thoughts about the gains the Trump team has made since they took over a few months ago.

Well, really, in just the last week, it has been remarkable to see that the University of Pennsylvania is issuing apologies for allowing men in women's private spaces.

You saw the clip just there from Secretary McMahon.

I think this is an exceptional turn.

I think that the movement to allow men to participate in girls' sports was just a travesty.

I mean, this was, uh, an assault on Title IX and all that it had meant to, uh, women's access to education.

As for Harvard and Columbia and these other colleges that have allowed for antisemitism to run rampant, they are also in conversations with the White House and the Department of Education over their policies.

How did it get this way?