As a chaplain, how serious do you think the overcrowding issue is?

It's a real problem, but let's not exaggerate it too far.

Right now, and there is an overcrowding problem, and there's a shortage of staff problem.

The prisons actually are quite calm right now.

The problem we're talking about, in which all credit to him, Andy Burnham is going in to try and have a review to solve, is one down the line, about four months down the line, when we know that the number of prisoners coming out of the courts is gonna send the numbers of prisoners surging above the high overcrowding level today.

And that is quite dangerous, but there's four months in which to solve it.

And I think when a prime minister goes in and says, look, bang a few heads together and get some progress.

Are we putting too many people in prison for too long?